The 2012 Proms season

[Alf-Prufrock]

I am all for three Vaughan Williams symphonies in an evening. I have done it myself with CDs and suffered no ill effects that my doctor can discern.

Anyway, the three symphonies concerned have a wonderful balance in themselves, - variety as huge as can be expected from three symphonies from one composer. Or do I mean mish-mash?

[MrGongGong]

Tuesday 3 September 1912:

Schoenberg: Five Orchestral Pieces, Op. 16 World premiere
New Queen's Hall Orchestra (1895-1914, Queen's Hall Orchestra) / Wood conductor

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/archive/search/1910s/1912/september-03/2193

What a bizarre concert!

Actually if you look at old concert programmes you find all sorts of things that today we would think of as bizarre

The Wigmore Hall has had some really odd things
along the lines of (have a look at some of the things in frames on the walls downstairs !)

Mr Scriabin will play the piano
followed by a comedy juggler
after which an all female string quartet will play some Brahms
followed by some Schubert songs
then Mr Bartok will play the piano
followed by some poetry

all starting at 8pm and obviously going on till at least 11:30

[Barbirollians]

That 1912 Prom is fun.

I suppose today's equivalent might be a new work by Harrison Birtwhistle sandwiched between some Chopin transcribed for the violin by Andre Rieu and Lloyd Webber duets with Katherine Jenkins and Andrea Bocelli

[bluestateprommer]

However, I would propose that as the scope of the Performance board is now principally aimed at the evening concert and live performance, discussion about individual concerts should remain there, with a formula title.......General discussion not related to concerts/recitals and information point can be here. Thoughts?

While I'm quite aware that as an American, I don't really count here ;) , I respectfully dissent from the suggestion that discussion about the Proms concerts should be under the Performance board, rather than the 2012 Proms board specifically. Because The Proms are their own unique entity, I think that the discussion of the individual Proms concerts should fall under that special rubric with The Proms as a whole, i.e. The Proms board. To do that will allow the individual Proms to be in a neat, compact place, without other concerts during the summer (Edinburgh, your regional festival, etc.) interspersing themselves and potentially cluttering up the search. Granted, discussion of the individual Proms will eventually go out of strict numerical order, but having "all the ducks in a row" strikes me as more convenient. Just my $0.02.

Having said that, regarding the 2012 Proms season, I had sort of the same general reaction as last season, where last season didn't seem all that overwhelmingly amazing on the surface, Havergal Brian 1 aside. However, on second inspection, I realized that there was a fair bit of buried treasure, or at least subtle treasure, last season, and I'm getting that same sense of subtle treasure for the 2012 Proms season. I second the highlighting of blockbusters like Les troyens, Gurrelieder, and The Apostles, but I'm also pleased to see such offerings like two works by Hugh Wood among the programming, as well as two Oliver Knussen symphonies. The modern programs always interest me, and I'll definitely mark those for iPlayer listening, when I can't hear them in real time. Likewise, the subtle pleasures always include the Proms Chamber Music concerts on Mondays, like Alice Coote's all-French recital and Pierre-Laurent Aimard's Debussy recital. And even though the BBC SO has just recently traversed a complete Sibelius cycle, I'll listen in to the concert that includes Symphonies 3 and 6, along with the new Per Norgard work, since 3 and 6 remain the two Sibelius symphonies I've yet to hear live.

For those who object to so much Boulez from Barenboim and the WEDO, no, it's not Boulez's centenary or some sort of anniversary, but it's Barenboim's party and he likes Boulez, so there we are. Plus, to be blunt, Boulez is 87, and there's not a lot of time left. Better to fete him while he's still around to enjoy it. Also, some may note that after the objections for the past few seasons of the omission of RVW from The Proms, the objectors now have their own RVW "orgy", as Harvard's radio station would put it, with the middle trilogy of the symphonies in one evening. (I think two intervals would be more sensible, but that would make the evening run really long, to be sure.)

Among more nit-picky points, there were some missed opportunities like not programming Book 2 of Dvorak's Slavonic Dances, rather than Symphony No. 7, with JB and the BBC SO, since they did Dvorak 7 at the Barbican a year and a half ago, and Book 2 still awaits a complete performance at The Proms. Maybe it'll happen when JB is invited back with the Czech Philharmonic down the line (fingers crossed). Likewise, it's time to give DSCH 10 a rest from being programmed 8 times in the past 12 seasons, with one continuous stretch of 6 years. (It's also time to give "You'll never walk alone" a rest from the Last Night, since 2 seasons in a row is more than enough.)

One amusing question is whether for Nixon in China, the BBC will allow the unexpurgated version of the libretto to go over the air, since Madame Mao drops the f-bomb in Act III. In the Met HD-cast, to my approving surprise, Kathleen Kim was allowed to let loose the f-bomb live to cinemas. Half the audience seemed taken aback at the time. Also, it's interesting that Peter Grimes is getting a complete performance, because while PG is well and truly established in the operatic canon, the last and only other complete Proms performance was in 1975, with Sir Colin Davis and Jon Vickers. If nothing else, this PG interests me because of the casting of Iain Paterson. If he does as well as his recent Met-HD Gunther, IP should be terrific as Balstrode.

Also, for the family Prom, the idea of a Wallace and Gromit Prom is brilliant. In fact, it's so obvious, in retrospect, that I wonder why it took so long to do it. Plus, it seems quite fitting, given the density of cultural allusions in the background of W&G, like the reference to Holst's The Planets in one story.

Speaking about American-ness, it's actually sort of amusing that the St. Louis orchestra is the only American, or more precisely North American, orchestra to be invited to the 2012 Proms. But as noted in the speculative thread before, because of David Robertson's connections to The Proms, it makes sense. (Plus, again, maybe inviting St. Louis allowed RW to pay for Berlin and Vienna more readily .) I also realized a subtle joke about inviting the Sao Paulo Symphony (the other orchestra from the Americas for this year's Proms), namely a tip of the hat to Brazil and the 2016 Olympics, even though the orchestra is from Sao Paulo rather than Rio de Janeiro.

So overall, a good summer for listening in on the iPlayer from this side of the pond.

[BBMmk2]

Is'nt it great to have the NYBBGB and NYWO on one bill? The programme looks quite appetising to!

One of the themesd this year's Proms season is 'Youth@. A very good idea this, imo,but in some quarters peol;e will say acheapskate way to put together a prograsmme perhaps?

[Hornspieler]

Message #109:

Bluestateprommer has given us the best summary so far. Sometimes the best views are obtained by standing back a little.

HS

[Beef Oven]

That 1912 Prom is fun.

I suppose today's equivalent might be a new work by Harrison Birtwhistle sandwiched between some Chopin transcribed for the violin by Andre Rieu and Lloyd Webber duets with Katherine Jenkins and Andrea Bocelli

[Beef Oven]

While I'm quite aware that as an American, I don't really count here ;) , I respectfully dissent from the suggestion that discussion about the Proms concerts should be under the Performance board, rather than the 2012 Proms board specifically. Because The Proms are their own unique entity, I think that the discussion of the individual Proms concerts should fall under that special rubric with The Proms as a whole, i.e. The Proms board. To do that will allow the individual Proms to be in a neat, compact place, without other concerts during the summer (Edinburgh, your regional festival, etc.) interspersing themselves and potentially cluttering up the search. Granted, discussion of the individual Proms will eventually go out of strict numerical order, but having "all the ducks in a row" strikes me as more convenient. Just my $0.02.

Having said that, regarding the 2012 Proms season, I had sort of the same general reaction as last season, where last season didn't seem all that overwhelmingly amazing on the surface, Havergal Brian 1 aside. However, on second inspection, I realized that there was a fair bit of buried treasure, or at least subtle treasure, last season, and I'm getting that same sense of subtle treasure for the 2012 Proms season. I second the highlighting of blockbusters like Les troyens, Gurrelieder, and The Apostles, but I'm also pleased to see such offerings like two works by Hugh Wood among the programming, as well as two Oliver Knussen symphonies. The modern programs always interest me, and I'll definitely mark those for iPlayer listening, when I can't hear them in real time. Likewise, the subtle pleasures always include the Proms Chamber Music concerts on Mondays, like Alice Coote's all-French recital and Pierre-Laurent Aimard's Debussy recital. And even though the BBC SO has just recently traversed a complete Sibelius cycle, I'll listen in to the concert that includes Symphonies 3 and 6, along with the new Per Norgard work, since 3 and 6 remain the two Sibelius symphonies I've yet to hear live.

For those who object to so much Boulez from Barenboim and the WEDO, no, it's not Boulez's centenary or some sort of anniversary, but it's Barenboim's party and he likes Boulez, so there we are. Plus, to be blunt, Boulez is 87, and there's not a lot of time left. Better to fete him while he's still around to enjoy it. Also, some may note that after the objections for the past few seasons of the omission of RVW from The Proms, the objectors now have their own RVW "orgy", as Harvard's radio station would put it, with the middle trilogy of the symphonies in one evening. (I think two intervals would be more sensible, but that would make the evening run really long, to be sure.)

Among more nit-picky points, there were some missed opportunities like not programming Book 2 of Dvorak's Slavonic Dances, rather than Symphony No. 7, with JB and the BBC SO, since they did Dvorak 7 at the Barbican a year and a half ago, and Book 2 still awaits a complete performance at The Proms. Maybe it'll happen with JB is invited back with the Czech Philharmonic down the line (fingers crossed). Likewise, it's time to give DSCH 10 a rest from being programmed 8 times in the past 12 seasons, with one continuous stretch of 6 years. (It's also time to give "You'll never walk alone" a rest from the Last Night, since 2 seasons in a row is more than enough.)

One amusing question is whether for Nixon in China, the BBC will allow the unexpurgated version of the libretto to go over the air, since Madame Mao drops the f-bomb in Act III. In the Met HD-cast, to my approving surprise, Kathleen Kim was allowed to let loose the f-bomb live to cinemas. Half the audience seemed taken aback at the time. Also, it's interesting that Peter Grimes is getting a complete performance, because while PG is well and truly established in the operatic canon, the last and only other complete Proms performance was in 1975, with Sir Colin Davis and Jon Vickers. If nothing else, this PG interests me because of the casting of Iain Paterson. If he does as well as his recent Met-HD Gunther, IP should be terrific as Balstrode.

Also, for the family Prom, the idea of a Wallace and Gromit Prom is brilliant. In fact, it's so obvious, in retrospect, that I wonder why it took so long to do it. Plus, it seems quite fitting, given the density of cultural allusions in the background of W&G, like the reference to Holst's The Planets in one story.

Speaking about American-ness, it's actually sort of amusing that the St. Louis orchestra is the only American, or more precisely North American, orchestra to be invited to the 2012 Proms. But as noted in the speculative thread before, because of David Robertson's connections to The Proms, it makes sense. (Plus, again, maybe inviting St. Louis allowed RW to pay for Berlin and Vienna more readily .) I also realized a subtle joke about inviting the Sao Paulo Symphony (the other orchestra from the Americas for this year's Proms), namely a tip of the hat to Brazil and the 2016 Olympics, even though the orchestra is from Sao Paulo rather than Rio de Janeiro.

So overall, a good summer for listening in on the iPlayer from this side of the pond.

Excellent post, and although from an American, it should not be deleted.

On another note, I spend a fair bit of each summer travelling around Turkey and much to my chagrin, I cannot seem to get access to the BBC iPlayer. How is it that it's available in the States? Or, should I be able to get it in Turkey?

[french frank]

Excellent post, and although from an American, it should not be deleted.

I was just about to announce that, in the teeth of opposition from those who agreed with me , that is what will be done: as last year, there will be a sub-forum of the Proms forum called Concerts. It will be much easier to archive in an easily searchable form and will save having to move all the Proms threads off the Performance board at the end of the season.

Not quite sure what I'll do with the Performance board then, as all R3's live performance programmes will be Proms. Perhaps relegate it to discourage people from posting Proms stuff there which will then have to be moved.

As usual, general concert-going and music news will be on Talking About Music.

Eine Alpensinfonie has offered to take care of the concert comments and will start the threads to ensure they're all in the same format. Again, massive thanks for his efforts.

(Bit pressed for time for reading all comments here this morning)

[aeolium]

Not quite sure what I'll do with the Performance board then, as all R3's live performance programmes will be Proms. Perhaps relegate it to discourage people from posting Proms stuff there which will then have to be moved.

Hang on, ff - the Proms are not the only game in town! What about all the summer festivals and of course the EIF which partly runs in parallel with the Proms? I hope R3 will be broadcasting some of those e.g. at lunchtime.

Another option would be to move the concert-going thread(s) from Talking About Music to the Performance board during the Proms, as presumably quite a few people will be going to non-Proms concerts then (e.g. Cheltenham Festival, Gower Festival etc ) Or put up a special Performance sub-forum for Summer Festivals (excl Proms)?

[french frank]

Hang on, ff - the Proms are not the only game in town! What about all the summer festivals and of course the EIF which partly runs in parallel with the Proms? I hope R3 will be broadcasting some of those e.g. at lunchtime.

Doh! as they say ... You're quite right. Well, plenty of time to refine the system and this is the main reason for raising the subject - to get the various angles covered. I will think on.

I didn't want to be burdened - or burden Hosts - with a lot of thread-moving. But the 'descriptions' of the boards can be altered to give more guidance as to where to post while the Proms are on.

There will certainly be some toothsome morning broadcasts from the EIF - so I am given to understand.

[aeolium]

I didn't want to be burdened - or burden Hosts - with a lot of thread-moving.

Of course not. I would say, though, that I think the Performance board would be a more natural place anyway for discussions about specific concerts (and indeed operas), whereas Talking About Music could be more to do with discussions about music and musical topics per se rather than concert-going. I know you've moved stuff about quite a bit to get to the present set-up so sorry to be bothersome, but it's just my opinion.

[pilamenon]

I'm glad all the concerts can be discussed within the Proms 2012 section, that makes sense for all the reasons given.

Not sure how many non-Proms live broadcast concerts there'll be from 13 July - 8 Sept to discuss. Why not keep Performance where it is, and if so other concerts can be discussed there as usual? I'm sure most people won't be confused.

Great post from bluestateprommer, though seems to suggest he/she's not coming over this year?
Was slightly saddened, though I suppose not surprised, to see so many negative reactions earlier up the thread to this unique feast of music. I think it looks a fascinating prospect, and at first glance there are a handful of concerts I'd love to get to - Kronos Quartet, Beethoven 7 and 8, Belshazzar's Feast, World Routes, Bach Mass, The Apostles, London Sinfonietta, Cage centenary, Shostakovich 7/Nelsons, Peter Grimes, Nixon in China.

[Roehre]

.....Though R3 likes anniversaries RW is very selective with them, if your an 'in' composer you'll get plenty of exposure, bit if not, you may get a token if your lucky, or be ignored. As I mentioned Daniel Jones has suffered too this year in his centenary year. ... I dont think RW is much of a fan of certain Welsh composers as both Jones and Hoddinott have virtually disappeared off the radar under his regime and Mathias has been largely reduced to short accessible works.

It would have been a good idea to couple Welsh Daniel Jones' centenary with Dutchman Rudolf Escher's.
Both studied at the same time in Amsterdam, had very similar political ideas, and kept in contact.
A coupling of Jones' 4th symphony (In Memoriam Dylan Thomas) with either Escher's Musique pour l'Esprit en Deuil (1943, a reaction to the German occupation) or his Symphony no.2 from 1958 would have shown the musical connections. The latter would have been a nice fellow to Jones' Symphony no.6 (1964) too, btw.

[Suffolkcoastal]

Programming the 3 middle symphonies of RVW together in a concert was suggested by Michael Kennedy in his pioneering book on Vaughan Williams published in the 1960's. I would like to go hear to this prom, but fear excitement among fellow RVW Society members will mean this will sell out very quickly. At least I won't be chasing VPO tickets, the only way they would be interesting to me would be to play something completely out of their comfort zone and after the terrific St Louis recordings of Piston that orchestra bring a totally uninteresting programme.