Prom 74: Saturday 10th September at 7.30 p.m. (Last Night of the Proms)

[Bert Coules]

Bert, yes, exactly that. "Syne" means "since". "Auld lang syne" = "Old long ago".

Thanks. So am I right about the words? Is it the inclusion of "...the sake of..." that's incorrect?

Should it be, in effect, "We'll take a cup of kindness yet, for old long ago"? If that's right, then actually the inclusion of "...the sake of..." doesn't actually strike me as particularly harmful: you could argue that it makes the meaning clearer.

[amac4165]

Ok not actually asleep yet. The Britten engages in faux-fealty, is self-conscious, self-regarding, and showily unshowy... Give me something authentic and I will like it or dislike it according to taste.

Like a lot of Britten arrangements too clever by 3/4 !

Just back from the hall - A bit of an odd LNOTP - first half never really took off. Bartok - too weird for a last night. Wagner languid and lacking good pace. Susan Bullock sounded fine though (tickets on sale 21/10 for the 2012 Ring @ ROH ) which bodes well.

Liszt - well he played all the right notes in the right order

Second half - ITMA and slightly better piano fare. Weird singing - then YPGTO with new "comedy" lines suitable for a Carry on.. Then a sort of repeat of last year but never reached the same impact. There after more or less normal service was resumed

[amac4165]

Don't you have to pay to go to the Proms in the Park(s)? That would make quite a profit on the events themselves - I wonder whether that goes to offset the Official Proms or into some other pot.

It would be interesting to know where the revenue from broadcast rights goes too. After all, most of the so-called 'loss' comes out of Radio 3's budget. It wouldn't be quite the thing if indirect revenue was going to the commercial wing.

As far as I know from someone a few years back the LNTOP gets pooled - via EBU etc -this is offset against purchases - New years concert, Met Opera broadcasts which are pooled via EBU etc

no doubt there are direct sales and CD dvds etc but they probably don't cover the 8mil deficit

[alywin]

LNOTP is one of the greatest disservices done to classical music. Many people - quite reasonably, since they haven't been, and London isn't at the end of every back garden - have the idea that the Proms are nothing but flagwaving for six weeks on end.

So true. A few years ago, I was in the gallery day queue and a couple of people (from South AFrica, I think), turned up with flags. Of course, they weren't allowed to take them in. They must have been very disappointed.

[alywin]

Don't you have to pay to go to the Proms in the Park(s)? That would make quite a profit on the events themselves - I wonder whether that goes to offset the Official Proms or into some other pot.

I thought I saw something about £35 for Hyde Park. Judging by the number of people there seemed to be there tonight, it must be a nice little earner.

[Simon B]

Unusually for me, I didn't watch any of the broadcast live on the tellybox as I had other more pressing things to do. [I have been to the LNOP a few times, albeit years ago. I found it a rather dismal experience from the circle/gallery - which was the best I could manage at the time - surrounded as I was by drunk, braying Sloanes clattering yet more glasses of booze, plus a selection of randomly mitteleuropa tourists, none of whom had any interest in anything bar the cheesy bits at the end].

I've just watched my digibox recording of the first half. Now, maybe I wasn't in the mood, but, hmmm...

First of all, the sound engineering (as rendered through some half decent equipment and at a fairly hefty volume as there's no-one around to be bothered despite the lateness of the hour) seemed to be pretty awful. Even by the "standards" (a new low overall, I'd say) of this season that is. They managed to make the BBCSO sound like a boxy end-of-the-pier scratch orchestra over-dominated by an apparently out-of-tune windband. Now, while (rather understandably) this wasn't the orchestra's finest hour, I bet they didn't sound like that in reality.

To be fair, expecting anything beyond the right notes in the right order was probably a bit daft really. However, having blithely proceeded to expect more regardless, I was roundly disappointed. The Miraculous Mandarin wasn't, and the Immolation Scene was more like Wagner by waning candlelight. Ed Gardner didn't seem to do anything with either of these apart from beat time. Where was the portent, the sombre gravitas, the anything apart from the notes in the Wagner? Again, I suspect the broadcast made it sound far worse than it really was (e.g. Ms Bullock was far too close Mic'd for this).

To repeat, it was probably my fault for expecting more. I can't really imagine what it must be like for even hardened professionals to have to bash out 15 minutes of percussive and dissonant Bartok, then the 15 most grandiloquent and refulgent minutes of Wagner's (or just about anyone's) output and with the prospect of some showtunes and a community singalong to follow after several more hours. Quite testing probably, as evidenced by the results IMO. Maybe I'll feel less curmudgeonly when I get round to watching the rest of it!

[salymap]

I went to bed with a migraine at 8pm so didn't hear any of it.
I go back to the 'original' Henry Wood Sea Songs' and wish they were returned in that form.
I'm afraid the rot set in in the Sargent days regarding changing and dropping them. At a Last Night rehearsal I remember 'Lady Jessie' Sir Henry's widow,wringing her hands and declaiming "Naughty, naughty Malcolm has dropped dear Henry's [one of the songs]" Can't remember the details but she was a fearsome lady and made her feelings quite clear.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Yes, The Caird Hall in the centre of the city. Dates from c 1921. It is generally regarded as having a very fine acoustic and is frequently used for classical recordings. It has a Harrison and Harrison organ, restored in 1991.

The ideal place for a few prom concerts.......

That's what I thought. Yet the BBC appears to think that the Caird Hall is a park.

Talking of the correct words for "Auld Lang Syne", how many people sing the correct words in the chorus of "Rule Britannia"? It should be "Britons never, never, never will be slaves." It is/was correctly printed in the Oxford Song Book.

[Mary Chambers]

I watched it. An odd programme, I thought, that somehow didn't hang together at all. Bartok, bleeding chunk of Wagner, flashy Liszt and a bit of Chopin from my least favourite pianist, Grainger - very strange planning. I don't think the intolerably sentimental Rodgers and Hammerstein songs should be there at all - I simply can't see the reason for them in this context, even when sung by Susan Bullock. I was quite looking forward to Wendy Cope's verses for the Young Person's Guide, but they just didn't work and simply weren't witty enough. If there's going to be a commentary at all (and I'd much rather not, although I know the original film had one) if it can't be witty it should be plain factual.

I love the Britten National Anthem, though. It's quite an achievement to make it sound almost interesting!

The dodgy microphone must have seemed nightmarish to Edward Gardner. I imagine one's first Last Night is a nerve-wracking thing even without technical trouble.

In the end I thought the traditional bits at the end came across best. I always see it as heavily ironic jingoism, and I think the Britannia costume confirmed that! I noticed she walked on very carefully. Wondering whether the helmet would stay on added to the fun, though presumably not to its wearer.

[marvin]

Two real high-points for me: the Wagner and the Britten "God Save", which I haven't heard for years.

As for the two songs from musicals............. so out of place!

I was intrigued by the padding at the beginning of Part 2. Does Katherine Jenkins always sound like that or did my television develop a sound fault? (Good to see Lang Lang seeming a bit more modest than his usual playing to the gallery - though I thought the over-sentimentalisation of the Liszt Consolation wrecked it.)

No, your TV is OK. Katherine Jenkins is very pretty but has a truly awful, tremulous voice with so much vibrato that mirrors might shatter. And Ms Bullock should stick to singing opera as she was totally unsuitable for anything else last night. What a truly awful evening this was. Perhaps our flashy Lang Lang was the only redeeming feature?
Perhaps the LNOP should be consigned to BBC3.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Perhaps the LNOP should be consigned to BBC3.

I do recall a time when Part 2 was broadcast on the Light Programme (Radio 2 that was). The Proms G & S night was too.

[Ventilhorn]

I watched it. An odd programme, I thought, that somehow didn't hang together at all. Bartok, bleeding chunk of Wagner, flashy Liszt and a bit of Chopin from my least favourite pianist, Grainger - very strange planning. I don't think the intolerably sentimental Rodgers and Hammerstein songs should be there at all - I simply can't see the reason for them in this context, even when sung by Susan Bullock. I was quite looking forward to Wendy Cope's verses for the Young Person's Guide, but they just didn't work and simply weren't witty enough. If there's going to have a commentary at all (and I'd much rather not, although I know the original film had one) if it can't be witty it should be plain factual.

I love the Britten National Anthem, though. It's quite an achievement to make it sound almost interesting!

In the end I thought the traditional bits at the end came across best. I always see it as heavily ironic jingoism, and I think the Britannia costume confirmed that! I noticed she walked on very carefully. Wondering whether the helmet would stay on added to the fun, though presumably not to its wearer.

Totally agree, Mary.

VH

[mangerton]

That's what I thought. Yet the BBC appears to think that the Caird Hall is a park.

Well, that's the London-centric BBC, and their abysmal knowledge of things Scottish for you. To be fair and completely accurate, there is a Caird Park on the north side of the city.

Talking of the correct words for "Auld Lang Syne", how many people sing the correct words in the chorus of "Rule Britannia"? It should be "Britons never, never, never will be slaves." It is/was correctly printed in the Oxford Song Book.

Indeed it should, EA. I think there were a few "rules" sung last night, too.

Could any attendees please confirm..... Are the words printed in the programme? Correctly? What about Jerusalem, National Anthem, Auld Lang Syne?

[mangerton]

Thanks. So am I right about the words? Is it the inclusion of "...the sake of..." that's incorrect?

Yes

Should it be, in effect, "We'll take a cup of kindness yet, for old long ago"? If that's right, then actually the inclusion of "...the sake of..." doesn't actually strike me as particularly harmful: you could argue that it makes the meaning clearer.

You could. You could argue a lot of things. I would argue that it's wrong, and that the correct words should be sung.

Are the words of Jerusalem, Land of Hope, and the National Anthem changed because "it makes the meaning clearer"?

Does the RSC change Shakespeare's words because "it makes the meaning clearer"?

[Bert Coules]

Does the RSC change Shakespeare's words because "it makes the meaning clearer"?

On occasion, but not - I would argue! - as often as they should. Comprehensibility is - I would argue - more important than correctness. Thanks for the reply.