Prom 69: Tuesday 6th September at 7.30 p.m. (Wagner, Rihm, Mahler)

[Chris Newman]

Originally Posted by Chris NewmanThe brass...do not sound brazen and American.

Ahem. I was ready to run up the white flag by the end of Mahler's first movement.

By which I meant they were loud and clear but played with subtle, bold colour and volume changes and less of the blare and rasping vibrato we expect from US orchestras. The principal trumpet's sound reminded me of the clear very flexible sound of Bram Gay who was in John Barbirolli's Halle and Colin Davis's ROHCG.

Cavatina, we just have to disagree on the quality of the sound in the arena at the rail and farther buck. I like to be able to hear the woodwind, harp and horns as part of the ensemble rather than individual unblended string players. The front few rows are often the cheapest in most concert halls for that reason. I tried the rail for Dausgaard's BBCSO concert in the first half but moved back at the interval. The important thing is we both often had wet eyes because we were deeply moved by a fabulous performance and felt the floor lurching about as the sound rocked the place about.

I had not originally planned to go and the sound of Colin Davis's Missa Solemnis was still ringing as ear worms in my mind. Then I heard the Tchaikovsky 5 on the steam radio and knew that I must hear this orchestra. I am so glad I did. I got home at half past one. A train full of England football supporters could not drown the memories of Mahler 5 but I could not go to bed till three.

[jayne lee wilson]

What a controversy arose in my absence...
for the record, I was listening via HDs, at a fairly high volume in a large room.

if I may review myself (and why not) I see that my description of Part 1 sounds too much like a description of the music for people who know it already - very gracious apology VH, sorry I provoked your sarcasm (again!). I intended to evoke the performance here, which was one of vivid, exciting extremes.

With Parts 2 & 3, I said "not quite overwhelming" because whilst beautifully played I felt the conductor lingered a little too much on local colour and character, even within the terms of his own colourful, characterful, rubato-rich reading. The big moments were indeed thrilling, but (again subjectively) didn't seem to be quite earned. The performance was, what, 75' or so? Petrenko here with the RLPO has done it twice recently, managing the rich narrative character within a quicker, tighter more "symphonic" framework; Honeck's, at least in the scherzo, was a little closer to a symphonic poem for me.

It IS tricky to do all this in one reading, but think of Walter taking a little over an hour in 1947! Typically today you get 70'-75', I hope someone tries the Walter approach again soon.

I was impressed by the the Rihm, it brought to mind some of Nono's extreme studies of isolation and bleakness (no hay caminos, or Canto Sospeso); but I guess it probably just reflects my current mood; I wanted an angrier, swifter more defiant Mahler too!

A fascinating, if not quite overwhelming, reading of the Mahler 5.

Exceptionally transparent and detailed, tonight the momentum of the whole structure didn't always carry through its separate parts. VERY free with rubato in the scherzo, at times threatening musical coherence, but intriguing nonetheless, a vivid sense of a story being told, of the dance of life, whether human or animal.

Part 1 very impressive - sad & ferocious lament, then angry protests, a glimpse of a triumph, a rapid fade.
Very sweet-toned strings in the adagietto, moderately-paced, leading to a finale which seemed to me a little too relaxed in its quieter moments; though the trumpets' affirmatory blaze was thrilling in itself, it still left me a little unfulfilled with the performance as a whole.

The Rihm piece was an extreme study of bleakness, darkness even, despite the predominance of high violin tones... violent outbursts punctuated the nightmare. Mutter's solo shone out from the heart of it.

[Ariosto]

last nights concert with the Pittsburgh

I listened on Radio 3 FM.

I thought the Wagner OK but it did little for me.

I was in fact quite impressed with the violin piece and although not a great fan of Mutter I though she did quite well. I also thought her Bach encore OK too, although I knew the purists would dislike it. I play that one too and it's one of the hardest movements of the D minor. She certainly played a lot better than the people recently murdering the Walton and Elgar concertos.

I thought the Mahler 5th was well played, but I'm amazed at how inacurate and hit and miss, and messy orchestras sound over the air. Following the score there was a lot which I could not hear, and the strings sounded rather weak, but this I am sure was down to the sound balance. The RAH is a dreadful accoustic, and that alone puts me off attending Proms concerts these days.

Bruno Walter has been mentioned, and of course, in my opinion anyway, no one much gets close to his understanding of this complex music.

I'm also beginning to wonder if it is not just a little over-written?

[bluestateprommer]

Some more Pittsburgh paper coverage on their Proms appearances:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11250/1172604-501-0.stm

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/ae/music/s_755363.html

This comment from principal flute Lorna McGhee may amuse some, but in a good way:

"Some of the string players could see people in the standing areas – a 15 year-old kid and a 90 year old woman, the whole gamut."

By the way, in light of:

...the Pittsburghers passed the hat amongst themselves, leading to this interchange did not make it onto the radio:

"Arena to Orchestra: Thank you for your donation!"
Orchestra: "You're welcome!"

(Was this before the music or after the concert, BTW?) Back at home, the orchestra and Honeck took salary cuts to help tide the orchestra over:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11243/1170948-388.stm

The relative quiet there contrasts with the rancor in Philadelphia, in this mini "Pennsylvania orchestras Olympiad" (but another link will go on Philly in that thread in a moment).

[Petrushka]

Not quite overwhelming, Jayne? I can only assume you listen on the rail at the front of the arena where, to my ears, all concerts are underwhelming. Come back where the fountain used to be. Best accoustic in the RAH. The horns of the Pittsburg SO are finer I would happily say than the VPO. That principal is phenomenal. The woodwind are exquisite. The brass played with a panache and accuracy we very rarely experience with British orchestras yet do not sound brazen and American. One thing Manfred Honeck dares his players to do is to play more softly and silkily than most other orchestras. The strings are fantastic at this yet can pack a punch when required. This showed in the Wagner, Mahler and the J. Strauss "Dragonfly". The group around me all agreed that this orchestra is now giving the Chicago a run for its money, could soon be America's top orchestra and that Honeck will soon get the coveted New Year's Eve Concert in Vienna. To sum up they are the best Viennese orchestra in America.

I was present in the hall for this and think that Chris's assrssmsnt is absolutely spot-on. There was no problem with rhe strings from my seat in 'O' stalls and the brass was thrilling, likewise the horns.

I've heard many Mahler 5's over the years at the Proms, yes, including the unforgettable 1987 VPO/Bernstein (was Manfred Honeck playing with the VPO that night I wonder?) and this one was up there with the best. Honeck leading the New Year's Day Concert? Yes please!

At the same time, I am with JLW in wanting to hear a Bruno Walter approach, especially in the Adagietto. No Death in Venice funereal nonsense here!

[prokkyshosty]

(Was this before the music or after the concert, BTW?)

A quorum from the PSO brass and horns approached the PMC representatives before the concert, handed over a wad of bills, then took some pictures with the Prommers. The "Arena to Orchestra" bit occurred at the end of the interval after the usual announcement. Indeed, it was quite a nice gesture from what appears to be some generous folk, especially in light of their own pay difficulties -- in the pre-concert talk, it was mentioned that the members sent $10,000 to their brethren in the Detroit Symphony to help pay their health care premiums during their strike.

As for the "witty chants" that are referred to in one of the reviews, I'm not sure what's being referred to, unless it is the "Arena to audience" business. To be honest I haven't really heard much interaction between the orchestra and the Prommers this season, though I could be wrong. I'm a little disappointed. I was hoping to hear the orchestras welcomed in their native languages, especially to see how the Prommers greeted the American orchestras. "Howdy?" "Wassup?"

[David Underdown]

The welcome shouts are only done for debut orchestras, so are increasingly rare these days

[Chris Newman]

One little bit of audience participation that I miss these days is singing the A just before the oboe blew it when the orchestra tuned up. A couple of perfect pitch singers usually saw to it that all was in order. The visiting orchestras loved it. I recall the NHK SO of Japan singing it back one Sunday afternoon. The combination of that exercise and the old Royal Festival Hall summons to arms for the concert gave me several perfect notes. I guess the Waterloo Station and South West Trains jingle (Leonora Number Three) keeps my ear topped up these days.

[Serial_Apologist]

By which I meant they were loud and clear but played with subtle, bold colour and volume changes and less of the blare and rasping vibrato we expect from US orchestras. The principal trumpet's sound reminded me of the clear very flexible sound of Bram Gay who was in John Barbirolli's Halle and Colin Davis's ROHCG.

Cavatina, we just have to disagree on the quality of the sound in the arena at the rail and farther buck. I like to be able to hear the woodwind, harp and horns as part of the ensemble rather than individual unblended string players. The front few rows are often the cheapest in most concert halls for that reason. I tried the rail for Dausgaard's BBCSO concert in the first half but moved back at the interval. The important thing is we both often had wet eyes because we were deeply moved by a fabulous performance and felt the floor lurching about as the sound rocked the place about.

I had not originally planned to go and the sound of Colin Davis's Missa Solemnis was still ringing as ear worms in my mind. Then I heard the Tchaikovsky 5 on the steam radio and knew that I must hear this orchestra. I am so glad I did. I got home at half past one. A train full of England football supporters could not drown the memories of Mahler 5 but I could not go to bed till three.

Chris

Your message prompts an idea for a publicity campaign on behalf of Roger Wright's rebranding R3 bid to increase ratings - possibly to be headlined by someone with detailed knowledge of the terrain?



Radio 3's brief to meet its unacknowledged demographic - proposed blurb

NEW MUSICAL VIBES

America gave us Soul; we now offer you Sole Music! - a brand new niche service to complete the well-heeled, discerning Prommer's specialist tastes amid gold-brocaded splendour!

SOLE MUSIC!

We keep instep - you foot the bill!

You won't realize what you've been missing unless you give it a try!

Within walking distance of the Royal Albert Hall

Dial this number, for the unforgettable post-Prom experience!

What do ya reckon?

[BudgieJane]

One little bit of audience participation that I miss these days is singing the A just before the oboe blew it when the orchestra tuned up. A couple of perfect pitch singers usually saw to it that all was in order. The visiting orchestras loved it. I recall the NHK SO of Japan singing it back one Sunday afternoon.

And on the odd occasion singing B flat instead, just to keep them on their toes.

[Ariosto]

And on the odd occasion singing B flat instead, just to keep them on their toes.

Pitch and rhythm are quite loose concepts in orchestras, so maybe they didn't notice ...

[Chris Newman]

As recalled by BudgieJane:

"And on the odd occasion singing B flat instead, just to keep them on their toes."

Yes, I think we usually reserved that for one London orchestra who were known for never smiling despite their rather more casual dress than other groups.

[gradus]

Just caught up with this concert and what a cracker it was. The Mahler was simply extraordinary and R3 obliged with a sound balance that reminded me of the old 35mm film recordings under Steinberg ie bright, analytic and with perhaps too much brass in the balance. Interestingly by the second encore someone seemed to have adjusted the mike covering the Horn section to a more natural perspective/balance - anyone else notice this? But i quibble, as remarked above this Proms Mahler 5 is up there with the best of them.

[Chris Newman]

Just caught up with this concert and what a cracker it was. The Mahler was simply extraordinary and R3 obliged with a sound balance that reminded me of the old 35mm film recordings under Steinberg ie bright, analytic and with perhaps too much brass in the balance. Interestingly by the second encore someone seemed to have adjusted the mike covering the Horn section to a more natural perspective/balance - anyone else notice this? But i quibble, as remarked above this Proms Mahler 5 is up there with the best of them.

Like it or not, William Caballero, Principal Horn (in my opinion one of the finest I have ever heard and in charge of the best horn section I have heard) stood up for his big solo in the Mahler and used the back wall between him and the organ to project his sound into the hall. The entire section did this in the finale. It was a stunning effect in the hall itself. I have heard the Czech Phil use this technique in the Rudolfinum in Prague.

[Peter Katin]

A fascinating, if not quite overwhelming, reading of the Mahler 5.

Exceptionally transparent and detailed, tonight the momentum of the whole structure didn't always carry through its separate parts. VERY free with rubato in the scherzo, at times threatening musical coherence, but intriguing nonetheless, a vivid sense of a story being told, of the dance of life, whether human or animal.

Part 1 very impressive - sad & ferocious lament, then angry protests, a glimpse of a triumph, a rapid fade.
Very sweet-toned strings in the adagietto, moderately-paced, leading to a finale which seemed to me a little too relaxed in its quieter moments; though the trumpets' affirmatory blaze was thrilling in itself, it still left me a little unfulfilled with the performance as a whole.

The Rihm piece was an extreme study of bleakness, darkness even, despite the predominance of high violin tones... violent outbursts punctuated the nightmare. Mutter's solo shone out from the heart of it.

Maybe. But somehow I can't come to terms with the Adagietto, especially as played as a sort of death-stricken dirge. They have lovely strings but to my mind they were wasted with this. Still, who am I...