Prom 67: Sunday 4th September at 7.00 p.m. (Beethoven's Missa Solemnis)

[Keraulophone]

Choir often a bit 'flat at the top'... plus the occasional bit of well-together' choral singing... Frequently... a 'painful listen'

This is one of the most taxing pieces for any amateur choir to sing. Beethoven is particularly merciless with the upper voices, so 'a bit flat at the top' is par for the course. Even the Ode to Joy, despite its relative brevity, is often 'flat at the top'. On the whole, I thought the choirs here had the requisite impact and did an admirable job... better than the soloists, IMO. A HIP would no doubt be a 'painful listen' for Colin Davis, who has regularly voiced his disapproval of 'out of tune' period instruments. I thought he had included the Benedictus among his Desert island Discs (1967), but on checking, it was actually the Sanctus (Toscanini). Perhaps he couldn't, at the time, find a recording of the Benedictus which lived up the Beethoven's vision.

The Mass in C is so much easier to digest - an under-performed masterpiece.

[amac4165]

I was in the Hall, third row of the Arena. To me it was a Prom of two halves - everything taut and together to the end of the Gloria, with the chorus really knowing what they had to do, and I was beginning to think it might turn out to be a highlight of the season, but it seemed to lose that tension and coherence during the Credo. Also, I wondered how much opportunity the replacement soprano had had to rehearse with the other soloists.

I was in the 4 or 5 row arena left right in front of the soloists - I would pretty much concur with that. Things did get strained a bit in the second half and it did fall away to certain extent. Overall I think the balance between religiosity and dramatic was spot on - I don't think I really appreciated how difficult a work it is to perform until yesterday.

[Ventilhorn]

Slow, dogged tempos;
Choir often a bit 'flat at the top'.
Very vibrato-laden, wobbly soloists ( including the solo violinist, LSO leader) ....
........Frequently, though, a 'painful listen' ( mostly due to the vocal soloists' wobbliness!)
Marks 'out of ten': 4

Methinks that Waldhorn is "shooting from the HIP", again. ...... but I think his complaints are quite justified.

There are some very good young singers in this country. Unfortunately, concert promoters in general seem to go for names rather than performance. If, God forbid, I were ever asked to conduct the Verdi Requiem, Beethoven's Nº 9, Choral Fantasia or the work under discussion here, I would want to audition the four soloists; individually and as a quartet, before deciding who should be entrusted with these difficult vocal tasks.

I wonder if Sir Colin (a great choral conductor and Beethoven interpreter) was consulted before the soloists were engaged?

VH

[Dave2002]

I discovered this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01460k5 - though I've not heard it all yet. Whether it throws any more light on the work I'm not sure yet - but it might.

[rauschwerk]

"Slow dogged tempos". It's a mass, not a ballet.

Oh, come on. The masses of Bach, Haydn and Mozart have plenty of fast music in them. The fact is that Colin Davis had already turned into a slow Beethoven conductor by the time of his symphony cycle with the Dresden orchestra.

[salymap]

I had a very welcome phone call so missed most of the broadcast. But slow and wobbly or not it was good to see Sir Colin in action again. It can't be an easy work but more so at his age. Keep going CD and best wishes.

[aeolium]

Q. What was 'any good' about this performance?

For me, the extraordinary quality of the music and the way in which the conductor supported by the orchestra, soloists and chorus demonstrated it. It was not a flawless performance - I did not think the soprano was at her best, though I understand she was a late replacement - but I don't think a flawless performance is possible (and perhaps not even desirable) in a work this difficult. I thought it was extremely powerful and moving, and certainly in my case went to the heart.

I disagree about the 'slow, dogged tempos'. In the score there are often measured tempo indications: "Assai sostenuto. Mit Andacht."; 'Larghetto"; "Allegro ma non troppo e ben marcato"; "Allegretto ma non troppo";"Allegro pesante", not to mention the slow sections. The Presto sections in the Gloria and Osanna were I thought taken fast enough taking into account the need to allow clarity in both chorus and orchestra.

I think the stamp of a fine performance is that one's attention is focussed on the music rather than the performers - that was the case for me last night. What a work!

[David Underdown]

The stamina needed for the choral parts is immense, I think the quality of singing is almost bound to fall-off during the course of a performance (Sir Colin himself has likened any performance to a failed attempt to reach the top of Everest). It was slow in places - certainly some of the fugues were slower than David Hill had been taking a scratch choir over the road in the RCM yesterday afternoon, but for me it worked as a whole. I think I must have been listening to a different quartet of soloists to those heard by Waldhorn.

If anyone wants to know more about the work, drop me a message with an email address, and I'll send you the programme note I wrote for a performance by Twickenham Choral Society in December 2009, or if you happen to have JSTOR access, there are plenty of interesting articles to be found (several of which used in compiling the programme note)

[mercia]

not knowing the work very well, can anyone recommend a recording? I've just been looking at a random selection on Spotify and there's a wide variety of timings e.g. for the Kyrie, Gardiner/Monterverdi Choir take 8'50", Klemperer & NewPhil. take 9'26" whilst Harnoncourt/Concentus Musicus take 12'12"

[Chris Newman]

From the Arena (about ten rows back) I found the concert incredibly moving. The end of Missa Solemnis always makes me cry: this performance was no exception.Listening to a snippet on iPlayer I found the soloists vibrato more noticeable than in the hall. Certainly Sara Connolly (easily the equal of Janet Baker, Helen Watts and Patricia Payne who I remember hearing before) and Helena Juntunen were the best I have heard in a live performance (even my beloved Elizabeth Soderstrom and Heather Harper). Paul Groves (a fabulous Gerontius earlier this year) did have a beat in the voice which would not have been apparent in the much faster Elgar piece: even so much of the Beethoven singing required near heldentenor resources. The first ever Prom performance in 1961 included John Mitchinson renowned for his intelligent use of volume rather than utter beauty of tone. Matthew Rose was very steady one slighly dubiously pitched entry aside.

Sir Colin Davis is no longer the firebrand who gave us a shattering Prom Missa Solemnis in 1971 in Westminster Cathedral but this 2011 performance was clearly poised between Heaven and Earth. Some moments were slower than we are accustomed to but far were lighter and brighter than Klemperer's more ponderously paced performance. I am pretty sure Sir Colin is still faster than Dr Klemperer though and is a few years older than him when he recorded it in the 60s. The fast moments were more dramatic for their contrast and intensity of volume.

Having sung in a performance of the Missa Solemnis I would regard it as the hardest sing in the choral society repertoire. At least the Mahler 8 musters a greater numbers of singers so that a wise chorus master will advise groups to take turns in resting the volume so that good tone is preserved. The Missa Solemnis rarely relents in its desperate cry for peace and when it is upbeat in mood it is still loud. A Prom concert calls for two performances on the day with rehearsals in the preceding days. The soloists and chorus will sing more softly at morning rehearsal but with a work like the Missa Solemnis voices will become worn and sore towards the end of a performance. It is the nature of the beast. Sopranos dread the work in the same way that tenors are not keen on belting top A's in the Polovtsian Dances (a killer early in a concert).

People are asking what the Missa Solemnis means. As in Fidelio there is a political/moral point being made about the majority of Beethoven's fellow men who profess religious views but do nothing on Earth to prepare thmselves and their fellow men for Heaven. It is angry and offers no consolation. Some of the following may help:
.

Before the concert Sara Mohr-Pietsch and members of the orchestra had an interesting talk on the work:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01460k5

Here is an archived illustrated talk on Beethoven and the Missa Solemnis

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00fk83d

David Cairns and Sir Colin Davis deal at length in last night's Programme Notes with Beethoven's intentions:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2011/september-04/78/programme-notes

I spoke with an LSO violinist on the tube who said the orchestra were very thrilled at the prospect of Sir Colin conducting the Missa Solemnis over the next couple of weeks in Bonn and New York.

[Chris Newman]

not knowing the work very well, can anyone recommend a recording? I've just been looking at a random selection on Spotify and there's a wide variety of timings e.g. for the Kyrie, Gardiner/Monterverdi Choir take 8'50", Klemperer & NewPhil. take 9'26" whilst Harnoncourt/Concentus Musicus take 12'12"

I have the two main EMI ones Klemperer and Giulini (steadier soloists than Klemperer and a similar overall time). Guilini as one would expect from 1970 is more serene and poised. I also have Horenstein's BBC Legends Maida Vale performance. Very fine with Stich-Randall, Norma Procter, Richard Lewis and Kim Borg. All are lovely and different.

[Serial_Apologist]

I'm sure Chris is right in his interpretation of what Beethoven wanted to "get over" in the Missa S. And it is that which for me stands like the proverbial elephant in the room in the way of "getting" the religious side to Beethoven. As someone of no faith, it's long puzzled me why people should need an afterlife to prepare for as prime motivator for a virtuous life.

On the other matter your raise, Chris, is it generally held that conductors tend to slow down performances with advancing age?

I have my theories on that... but, too much!

S-A

[EnemyoftheStoat]

Sopranos dread the work

Not the ones I know - they'd sooner have this on the calendar than LvB9.

[Chris Newman]

Originally Posted by Chris Newman

Sopranos dread the work

Not the ones I know - they'd sooner have this on the calendar than LvB9.

Well, a little inartistic exaggeration perhaps. It is as Sir Colin says "like failing to reach the top of Mount Everest". It is the sort of work the sopranos who know it and hear it announced for future performance gulp in a mixture of eager anticipation and the thought that they are not getting younger. I'll get my coat.

[jayne lee wilson]

I would simply say: buy the Gardiner.

Not usually an admirer of this conductor - I find his performances often too literal, metrical and under-interpreted - but his 1990 Archiv recording with the ORR is an out-and-out classic. It has tremendous grip and drama, but great depth too, is beautifully sung, with a clearer than usual vision of the work overall. I'll never forget hearing his Gloria for the first time, leaving shock waves in its trail! Even now after hearing many other readings that moment can make most other recordings seem pale and slow. Just get it!

Zinman's is even faster, of course (65'57!) - again very well done, historically-aware, but does fall into that literal-and-metrical trap occasionally, missing some of the darker depths. But if you're budget-conscious it's a great bargain on Arte Nova, and if you choose one of the older classics like Klemperer it would make an excellent point of comparison.

not knowing the work very well, can anyone recommend a recording? I've just been looking at a random selection on Spotify and there's a wide variety of timings e.g. for the Kyrie, Gardiner/Monterverdi Choir take 8'50", Klemperer & NewPhil. take 9'26" whilst Harnoncourt/Concentus Musicus take 12'12"