Prom 60: Tuesday 30th August at 7.30 p.m. (Mozart, Bruckner)

[scottycelt]

<Bruckner just sounds so HEAVY and MALE>

Maybe then, for some of us, that might possibly be the ideal antidote to the constant mind-numbing, lightweight utterances of modern feminism, S-A ... ?

Yes, Petrushka, you are right, that stunning Wand account of No 8 was in 1985. I, too, was present at the later one in the Nineties but was way up in the gallery on that occasion so the experience (for me) wasn't quite the same.

I was being a bit flippant earlier regarding all the editions, seemingly countless revisions and 'doctored' versions, but for a devoted Brucknerian like myself they have have always been a source of fascination and joyful discovery, rather than irritation. As for No 5, I think it is right up there with 7, 8 and 9 as being a candidate for Bruckner's finest symphony.

With this composer it always seems to be relative famine followed by a great feast. In the coming months we have many performances to look forward to in London and elsewhere by the conducting likes of Abbado, Haitink, and Barenboim. I also read somewhere that Rattle and the Berlin Phil are performing a completion of the Ninth next summer ... hopefully that will be at the Proms.

Roll on 2012!

[Ventilhorn]

OK, OK, Jayne, I will now tell you why it's so difficult for me to be 'objective' and dispassionate about tonight's Bruckner 8 performance:
In 1970 ( 41 years ago) I played 5th horn/ 1st Wagner tuba in a prom concert of Bruckner's 8th symphony,the LSO conducted by the great Jascha Horenstein. My memory is that he used the Haas not the Nowak version.
I may be wrong about this, of course, but I will look into it.

Waldhorn:

Do settle down, my dear old chap. If you were playing in 1970, you must be of an age when it is not good to get over excited!

I too, have a recording of that 1970 Horenstein performance and it was certainly the Haas edition, as also is HvKs recording with the BPO.

Listening to the Horenstein; if you are that Wagner Tuba player, then congratulations - and I can understand your misgivings about last night's performance; but to compare anything with a Horenstein reading of Bruckner is as pointless as comparing a 2011 Ford Focus with a 1970Bentley Continental (unfortunately the latter is no longer made)

I played 3rd horn in this symphony with the LPO under Sir George Solti in late 1968 at the RFH, and that, too, was the Haas edition, so it is no surprise that there were parts of last night's performance that I did not recognise.

Nevertheless, I thought that the Dutch Radio Philharmonic Orchestra gave us an electrifying concert and it will cerrtainly be kept in my recorded collection. I enjoyed the piano concerto for what it was - a neat and tidy performance of a work which stands on its own merits and needs no mucking about. So far, I have selected but two of this year's proms as being my most favoured - and this is one of them.

Have a nice cup of tea and enjoy your day.

Ventilhorn

[makropulos]

Waldhorn:

Do settle down, my dear old chap. If you were playing in 1970, you must be of an age when it is not good to get over excited!

I too, have a recording of that 1970 Horenstein performance and it was certainly the Haas edition, as also is HvKs recording with the BPO.

Listening to the Horenstein; if you are that Wagner Tuba player, then congratulations - and I can understand your misgivings about last night's performance; but to compare anything with a Horenstein reading of Bruckner is as pointless as comparing a 2011 Ford Focus with a 1970Bentley Continental (unfortunately the latter is no longer made)

I played 3rd horn in this symphony with the LPO under Sir George Solti in late 1968 at the RFH, and that, too, was the Haas edition, so it is no surprise that there were parts of last night's performance that I did not recognise.

Nevertheless, I thought that the Dutch Radio Philharmonic Orchestra gave us an electrifying concert and it will cerrtainly be kept in my recorded collection. I enjoyed the piano concerto for what it was - a neat and tidy performance of a work which stands on its own merits and needs no mucking about. So far, I have selected but two of this year's proms as being my most favoured - and this is one of them.

Have a nice cup of tea and enjoy your day.

Ventilhorn

Hello Ventilhorn,
I'm rather surprised to hear you say that Solti used the Haas edition in his LSO performance. He made two commercial recordings (in 1966 with the VPO and 1990 in Chicago) and there's a 1993 live performance with the VPO - all three use Nowak's edition of the 1990 version.

As for Horenstein, he was happy with either. In Vienna he made a record using Nowak and at the Proms he played Haas. (He's not alone: Haitink has used both, Jochum recorded both since Nowak's edition didn't exist when he made his first record, and so on).

[Ventilhorn]

Hello Ventilhorn,
I'm rather surprised to hear you say that Solti used the Haas edition in his LSO performance. He made two commercial recordings (in 1966 with the VPO and 1990 in Chicago) and there's a 1993 live performance with the VPO - all three use Nowak's edition of the 1990 version.

As for Horenstein, he was happy with either. In Vienna he made a record using Nowak and at the Proms he played Haas. (He's not alone: Haitink has used both, Jochum recorded both since Nowak's edition didn't exist when he made his first record, and so on).

Actually it was the LPO and it was, as I recall in October or November in 1968. I was deputising as 3rd horn, because the incumbent, Timothy Brown, was playing 6th horn and 2nd tuba*. I know it's a long time ago, but I'm sure that I would have remembered, particularly towards the close of the last movement, if we had been playing the version which was played last night.

Anyway, they are both wonderful and join Numbers 4,7 and 9 as my Bruckner favourites.

VH

* It is one of my regrets that I have never had the opportunity to play a Wagner Tuba - or a Viennese horn, for that matter.

[Roehre]

Yes indeed - or rather Harps - and assuming the "dreifach womöglich" is from Bruckner then three of them (in both movements).

Yes, I overlooked the harp appearing in the slow movement too. I "stuck" to the trio as that is the immediately earcatching difference between the versions in that trio.

[cavatina]

This was another prejudice-shattering concert I would have missed without a season pass; I'm so glad I came. Whatever you think of the merits of competing versions, I thought last night's performance was incredibly expressive, powerfully vital-- and absolutely gut-wrenching. I found myself in tears through the Adagio...the world seemed to stand still.

This performance made it easy to see what George Tintner meant when he called the coda of the Adagio "one of the greatest inspirations in all music". Or what Hugo Wolf meant when he wrote "The work renders all criticism futile; the Adagio is absolutely incomparable."

I wasn't listening for the flaws, I was listening for the meaning. So enough words from me...time to go listen again.

[Ferretfancy]

Wasn't there some Mozart last night?

[Tony Halstead]

[pilamenon]

Wasn't there some Mozart last night?

Yes, I was much more interested in hearing David Fray, but forgot it was on. Hoping to catch the repeat on Thursday afternoon. Bruckner just goes on a bit for me - I'm with S-A on this - but it's just a blank spot of mine, best to leave it at that.

[salymap]

Yes, I was much more interested in hearing David Fray, but forgot it was on. Hoping to catch the repeat on Thursday afternoon. Bruckner just goes on a bit for me - I'm with S-A on this - but it's just a blank spot of mine, best to leave it at that.

I'm with both of you, Bruckner is like suet pudding IMO, often thick and stodgy. I have really tried but perhaps left it too late as I assimilated new works better when I was young

[Serial_Apologist]

I'm with both of you, Bruckner is like suet pudding IMO, often thick and stodgy. I have really tried but perhaps left it too late as I assimilated new works better when I was young

Thanks saly. I'm glad it isn't just me.

[gedsmk]

I enjoyed it very much indeed, despite the somewhat peculiar balance on DAB (solo trombone sounded like it was in front of the strings?).
the Adagio was magnificent, and I thought the finale came together splendidly.
I was hoping it might be greeted by stunned silence but unfortunately the "bravo" shouter had to get in there even BEFORE the echo had died away.
As this was a performance by a radio orchestra seemingly in peril of its very existence, their wholehearted commitment was impressive indeed.

[Tony Halstead]

solo trombone sounded like it was in front of the strings

Er, um...that 'solo trombone' was actually a Wagner tuba.

[salymap]

I bought a set of complete Bruckner symphonies some years ago, antique recordings, remastered, by the great conductors of the past, including Furtwangler, Rozhdestvensky,Jochum,Bohm, etc. No 8 has 'Feierlich' by the adagio and finale. Is this yet another version? Berliner Philharmoniker, cond Furtwangler,1949.

I won't give up on Bruckner yet

[Roehre]

No 8 has 'Feierlich' by the adagio and finale. Is this yet another version? Berliner Philharmoniker, cond Furtwangler,1949.

Salymap, in 1949 Bruckner 8 was played in the Haas-edition.