Prom 60: Tuesday 30th August at 7.30 p.m. (Mozart, Bruckner)

[Roehre]

Nowak, in each of the editions he prepared, offer Bruckner as Bruckner composed, then revised the work. Haas's pick and mix version, funded by you know who, is neither fish nor fowl, and though nearly everything in it originates from Bruckner's work, it is not a composition by Bruckner. I know Stephen Johnson likes to believe that Bruckner's striking out of the passages Haas 'restored' was something the composer regretted, but all Johnson offers in support of that view is supposition. Give me the two Nowak editions, and retain the Haas (preferably in a museum) as a curiosity as far as I'm concerned.

That makes definitely two of us

[Roehre]

NOWAK is rubbish...!
I hope I'm not alone in finding this 'edition' of the 'only' great 8th symphony, with its irritating little gratuitious sub-themes and constipated 'counterpoints' to be trivialised and mauled almost beyond either recognition or redemption..?

If it's rubbish, don't shout it, but give evidence, just PROVE it.

[amateur51]

Well I approve of the edition used, (though I am more used to the 1887 score these days), but not a lot else, so far. I wish I could find where I have put the DG Jochum set.

My fortnight's holiday start on Saturday.

Happy hollies, Bryn!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SiDQAJxE2g

[Tony Halstead]

I can't prove it, it's an example of IMHO!
On the 'old' boards I have been chided in the past for stating 'IMHO' - on the basis that all statements on these boards are by default IMHO unless qualified by supporting evidence.

[makropulos]

If it's rubbish, don't shout it, but give evidence, just PROVE it.

Yes - and what is more, Nowak is not responsible for "irritating little gratuitious sub-themes and constipated 'counterpoints' to be trivialised and mauled almost beyond either recognition or redemption" - that sounds like a description of Bruckner by someone who doesn't like or understand Bruckner.

Bryn's explained the position of the Nowak vs. Haas debate with the 1890 version. For reasons he (and I) have explained before, we both think Nowak did a more responsible job, and Roehre clearly feels the same way. In Haas's defence, he didn't have the luxury of producing editions of both the 1887 and 1890 versions, so needed to find what he considered an ideal(ized) version.

If someone gives a great performance of the Haas version I'm hardly going to be disappointed - the differences are fairly trivial apart from Haas's interpolations, which would presumably be seen as producing even more of the "irritating little gratuitious sub-themes and constipated 'counterpoints' ..." and the like...

[jayne lee wilson]

Magnificent Bruckner! Technically, musically, a triumph!
A sure and swift traversal of those great peaks and lovable valleys... so faithfully relayed.

Right now, no more words... Editions and discussions, for later.

[Tony Halstead]

Right now, no more words... Editions and discussions, for later.

A bit 'controlling' , isn't it, Jayne?

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes - and what is more, Nowak is not responsible for "irritating little gratuitious sub-themes and constipated 'counterpoints' to be trivialised and mauled almost beyond either recognition or redemption" - that sounds like a description of Bruckner by someone who doesn't like or understand Bruckner.

Bryn's explained the position of the Nowak vs. Haas debate with the 1890 version. For reasons he (and I) have explained before, we both think Nowak did a more responsible job, and Roehre clearly feels the same way. In Haas's defence, he didn't have the luxury of producing editions of both the 1887 and 1890 versions, so needed to find what he considered an ideal(ized) version.

If someone gives a great performance of the Haas version I'm hardly going to be disappointed - the differences are fairly trivial apart from Haas's interpolations, which would presumably be seen as producing even more of the "irritating little gratuitious sub-themes and constipated 'counterpoints' ..." and the like...

Even so, I have enormous admiration for Prommers who have made themselves stand through this entire evening's concert. I have never been able to stay awake through any of Bruckner's symphonies.

[makropulos]

Isn't sleeping while you're standing up quite difficult, S-A? I mean, wouldn't you, er, fall down?

The Proms were where I first heard most of the Bruckner symphonies, so my earliest experiences of them were by standing. Perhaps that's why I ended up loving several of them.

[scottycelt]

Magnificent Bruckner! Technically, musically, a triumph!
A sure and swift traversal of those great peaks and lovable valleys... so faithfully relayed.

Right now, no more words... Editions and discussions, for later.

Absolutely ... and I agree with makropulos about the trivial differences between Nowak and Haas at least to the eager ear of this amateur. I confess to a slight bias towards the Haas because it lasts even longer and the greatest performance of this stupendous work that I ever witnessed was the Haas version version with Wand and the BBCSO at the Proms in 1986 (I think).

The first two movements sounded a bit tame to me ... I much prefer 'earthy' Bruckner to 'saintly' ... but the slow movement was beautifully paced and the coda in the Finale as magnificent-sounding as it should always be.

Good to hear from Tom Service that the hall was 'full' .. I never know whether that means more than 'packed' or vice-versa.

[scottycelt]

Isn't sleeping while you're standing up quite difficult, S-A? I mean, wouldn't you, er, fall down?

The Proms were where I first heard most of the Bruckner symphonies, so my earliest experiences of them were by standing. Perhaps that's why I ended up loving several of them.

I love 'em all, sitting down or standing on my head ... yes, even No 0 and 00 and all the revisions and doctored versions that others seem to be decidedly sniffy about ... just can't get enough Bruckner, me ...

[prokkyshosty]

Even so, I have enormous admiration for Prommers who have made themselves stand through this entire evening's concert. I have never been able to stay awake through any of Bruckner's symphonies.

I didn't think I had the stamina for this one so I purchased a ticket up in the restricted view circle, only to discover that my view of the Wagner tubae was restricted, which I found unacceptable. So I came down at intermission and stood for the whole thing. So much for that seven pounds fifty!!

Can the Brucknerians on the board answer me a question... are the two cymbal shots in this, and the one in the Seventh, the only percussion (other than timps of course) to appear in Bruckner? And were they added later, or only contained in these certain Nowak or Haas editions? Thanks in advance.

[Petrushka]

the greatest performance of this stupendous work that I ever witnessed was the Haas version version with Wand and the BBCSO at the Proms in 1986 (I think).

August 17 1985, actually, Scotty. I was there, too, as well as at a later Wand performance in 1992.

[makropulos]

I love 'em all, sitting down or standing on my head ... yes, even No 0 and 00 and all the revisions and doctored versions that others seem to be decidedly sniffy about ... just can't get enough Bruckner, me ...

With you nearly all the way, scottycelt. I do struggle a bit with the symphonies that have a number lower than 1 - but love 'em from then on, with the weird exception of 5 which I admire/respect but never quite "get" - but that's my fault not Bruckner's.

[Petrushka]

Can the Brucknerians on the board answer me a question... are the two cymbal shots in this, and the one in the Seventh, the only percussion (other than timps of course) to appear in Bruckner? And were they added later, or only contained in these certain Nowak or Haas editions? Thanks in advance.

The cymbal clashes in the 8th are absolutely genuine Bruckner. I think rhere is a triangle as well.

The cymbal in the 7th is more contentious. The original score shows the clash but over the top someone, possibly Bruckner, has written nicht gelt (not valid). We don't know so conductors are free to include it or not.