Prom 60: Tuesday 30th August at 7.30 p.m. (Mozart, Bruckner)

[makropulos]

August 17 1985, actually, Scotty. I was there, too, as well as at a later Wand performance in 1992.

That's just brought back a fine memory. Count me among those who were there too!

There have been so many wonderful Bruckner performances at the Proms. My own fondest memories of ones I was at include:
No. 4 - Kempe 1972
No. 7 - Solti 1973
No. 8 - Haitink 1973
No. 7 - Giulini about 1981?
No. 3 - Matacic (the most moving live performance of a Bruckner symphony I've ever attended - a genuinely unforgettable concert).
No. 8 - Wand 1985
No. 8 - Haitink with the EU Youth Orchestra - 1989/90
[missed the Wand No. 8 in 1992]
And since then the ones I've remembered best have been Haitink performances (mostly of No. 7 or 8)

[Petrushka]

That's just brought back a fine memory. Count me among those who were there too!

There have been so many wonderful Bruckner performances at the Proms. My own fondest memories of ones I was at include:
No. 4 - Kempe 1972
No. 7 - Solti 1973
No. 8 - Haitink 1973
No. 7 - Giulini about 1981?
No. 3 - Matacic (the most moving live performance of a Bruckner symphony I've ever attended - a genuinely unforgettable concert).
No. 8 - Wand 1985
No. 8 - Haitink with the EU Youth Orchestra - 1989/90
[missed the Wand No. 8 in 1992]
And since then the ones I've remembered best have been Haitink performances (mostly of No. 7 or 8)

That Giulini 7th was on July 19 1982 and I will never forget that one and happily it is on a BBC Legends CD. I was also at the EUYO Haitink 8th which had the best timpani playing I've ever heard in the piece. A huge roar greeted his solo bow.

[Serial_Apologist]

Isn't sleeping while you're standing up quite difficult, S-A? I mean, wouldn't you, er, fall down?

The Proms were where I first heard most of the Bruckner symphonies, so my earliest experiences of them were by standing. Perhaps that's why I ended up loving several of them.

Mahler loved Bruckner's symphonies; my friend Roehr clearly loves Bruckner symphonies. I have to say, for me they meander on and on in ways which should be saying, "This has meaning; this has structure and direction". Then at various points huge great fortissimi suddenly boom out stentoriously for some great reason or other, and I wake up (in my armchair, btw!), and wonder what it all signifies. I'm pretty broadminded when it comes to most music from the concert hall traditions; Bruckner just sounds so HEAVY and MALE; his methods sound laborious when he's not gallumphing his way through one of those scherzos, and his orchestration sounds stodgy and bloated to me, and not at all Wagnerian. Not that I'm a great Wagnerian either, preferring unmixed orchestral timbres, or very subtle orchestral mixing with few doublings, as is the case with most Russian and French composers in the wake of Debussy and Ravel. Holst, is, to me, non-pareil example of a brilliant, economical orchestrator.

I guess it's just something lacking in me that I just don't "get" Bruckner. My dad used to say to me, "One day, son, you will appreciate Bach and Beethoven - when you're mature enough". That was when I was fifty! Maybe one day Bruckner? Hmmm - I'll keep trying... to stay awake. I'm always...... "trying".

[makropulos]

Yes - both the Giulini and Matacic performances are on BBC Legends, and both very deservingly so.

I'd forgotten about the timpanist of the EUYO!

[makropulos]

"I guess it's just something lacking in me that I just don't "get" Bruckner."

I don't think there's anything remotely "lacking" in you, S-A - these things can only be matters of taste when it comes to how we react to particular pieces and composers.

And - needless to say - I've got a few blind spots myself!

[Petrushka]

I first heard a Bruckner symphony (No 8, VPO/Furtwangler) at the age of 20 in 1974 and took to it immediately so you don't necessarily have to be mature to understand it. That 1944 Furtwangler still does it for me now, a searing performance given at the closing months of Hitler's Reich.

Since hearing that, Bruckner became, along with Mahler, my greatest musical influence.

[Ferretfancy]

I went tonight, but could only stay for the Mozart, a clear. forthright, and articulate account with some nice wind playing. David Fray isn't yet a Perahia or a Curzon, nor a Grosvenor come to that, but I enjoyed it.The slower central section of the final rondo always catches the heart.

[Roehre]

The cymbal clashes in the 8th are absolutely genuine Bruckner.
The cymbal in the 7th is more contentious. The original score shows the clash but over the top someone, possibly Bruckner, has written nicht gelt (not valid). We don't know so conductors are free to include it or not.

The one instrument which appears only in Bruckner's symphonies once, in the trio of scherzo 8 1890-version, is the harp.
The discussion about the cymbal in 7ii is a nice one, as both the pros and the cons can show evidence in Bruckner's hand writing either to include or to negate that clash

[Chris Newman]

There are gaps in my Prom Bruckner Symphonies but I have not done too badly:

Haitink 9 1967/69
Downes 6 1968
Goodall 8 1969
von Dohnany 6 1969
Goodall 7 1970
Horenstein 8 1970
Haitink 2 1971
Horenstein 5 1971
Haitink 8 1972
Kempe 4 1972
Solti 7 1973
Giulini 7 1982

I also have heard Barbirolli give the 8 at the Festival Hall, Giulini with the 8 in Salisbury Cathedral. I recall Klemperer as well but forget which one it was.

I was too busy with work until recently to get up to London. Happily I have several of the above concerts on CD now.

[Tony Halstead]

Nonsense; you can hear it very clearly in the slow movement of No. 8

[jayne lee wilson]

Hang on Roehre - the harp appears in the adagio of the 8th too, and there is a fascinating difference Haas/Nowak which Robert Simpson highlights: the harp is left alone after the great climax in Haas, but is accompanied by the violins in the revision (i.e. Nowak). Simpson normally prefers Haas but recommends the Nowak here.

The one instrument which appears only in Bruckner's symphonies once, in the trio of scherzo 8 1890-version, is the harp.
The discussion about the cymbal in 7ii is a nice one, as both the pros and the cons can show evidence in Bruckner's hand writing either to include or to negate that clash

[makropulos]

Hang on Roehre - the harp appears in the adagio of the 8th too, and there is a fascinating difference Haas/Nowak which Robert Simpson highlights: the harp is left alone after the great climax in Haas, but is accompanied by the violins in the revision (i.e. Nowak). Simpson normally prefers Haas but recommends the Nowak here.

Yes indeed - or rather Harps - and assuming the "dreifach womöglich" is from Bruckner then three of them (in both movements).

[jayne lee wilson]

Oh, Waldhorn! After all you said about the unstated IMHO?

I ended up off my chair, on my knees before the speakers, arms outstretched, tears in my eyes...
I wanted to acclaim, but I simply couldn't say any more!

Well, now...
A finely-engineered webcast, presenting a swift, urgent, but carefully thought-through interpretation, with particularly impressive and cohesive playing from the strings.

I heard a 1st movement more preludial, less apocalyptic at its climax than most; a fast scherzo which convinced me (brought up on the steadier, one basic tempo, Karajan/Wand ideals) of its own validity through the subtle changes of pace in the trio, with a quite magnificent, mountaintop climax near the trio's end; then a superbly articulated adagio, the intensity and power mounting to a true climax, and a serene, heavenly coda following.
The finale began less powerfully than usual, again van Zweden taking the longer architectural view, the excitement and dynamic range increasing as the first group returned, with a wonderfully clear sense of Bruckner's own, unique finale structure, a kind of multi-themed sonata-rondo (he would never have called it that of course...) with a constant "developing variation" of the themes; then the greatest of all Bruckner's thematic syntheses to crown the glory of the coda.

I loved it because it convinced me of its own rightness, a performance of the Nowak which overwhelmed this listener, who would normally speak up for the Haas; on such a night as this, the edition doesn't matter.

Right now, no more words... Editions and discussions, for later.

A bit 'controlling' , isn't it, Jayne?

[Tony Halstead]

OK, OK, Jayne, I will now tell you why it's so difficult for me to be 'objective' and dispassionate about tonight's Bruckner 8 performance:
In 1970 ( 41 years ago) I played 5th horn/ 1st Wagner tuba in a prom concert of Bruckner's 8th symphony,the LSO conducted by the great Jascha Horenstein. My memory is that he used the Haas not the Nowak version.
I may be wrong about this, of course, but I will look into it.

[jayne lee wilson]

Well, Waldhorn, that leaves me suitably awestruck... this is the one on BBC Legends? From a quick look around online it is indeed the Haas, his earlier Vox Vienna Symphony one was the Nowak. (In summer 1970 I was just discovering Deep Purple; I didn't fall in love with orchestral music till 1972, thanks to Radio 3 and a local record library. Klemperer's Bruckner 5th and 9th were early purchases, but I can't recall what led me to them).

You recall the 1975 Giulini VSO account of the 2nd, using the Nowak edition which is arguably more damaging to the symphonic argument (in its omissions) than the Nowak 8th; even Deryck Cooke, again usually a Haas supporter, was moved to say "for once, I'm inclined to ignore the question of versions - it's still Bruckner's 2nd Symphony, sounding more maturely Bruckner than ever before". I quote this from the Testament CD inlay.
Sheer enthusiasm for a performance can move one to dismiss differences, but later you realise again, editions do matter...
So, do you try to stick with a set of textually pure editions, and say conductors must choose? Or allow performers more license to combine texts and revisions? Performers as distinct as Vanska and Karajan have chosen the latter course...

OK, OK, Jayne, I will now tell you why it's so difficult for me to be 'objective' and dispassionate about tonight's Bruckner 8 performance:
In 1970 ( 41 years ago) I played 5th horn/ 1st Wagner tuba in a prom concert of Bruckner's 8th symphony,the LSO conducted by the great Jascha Horenstein. My memory is that he used the Haas not the Nowak version.
I may be wrong about this, of course, but I will look into it.