Prom 52: Tuesday 23rd August at 7.30 p.m. (Prokofiev, Dutilleux)

[Rasluap]

I see that The Guardian have awarded this concert 5 stars. I have to agree with one comment in that review: what a pleasure to hear the orchestra out of the Barbican for once.

Concerning the Gergiev sound effects there is a simple answer: stand further back when certain conductors are on the podium. Eight or so rows back in the arena, and there was no problem. For me, Gergiev was at his most engaged last night, and the orchestra were clearly enjoying themselves. This was a far more interesting performance of the Classical than one I heard a few years back from these forces in their City home - also with the frenetic speed in the last movement.

Although the 5th symphony was outstandingly played, it did not erase memories of a recent Maida Vale performance by the BBC Symphony and JB which also raised the roof but brought out the dissonance and power of the third movement with even greater force. Or maybe it was the Maida Vale acoustics which sharpened those effects.

Yet again I marvel at this golden age of orchestral playing in London: do we know how lucky we are?

[Roslynmuse]

Being something of a Dutilleux fanatic, I was particularly interested to hear Slava's Fanfare, a work I only knew by name (as far as I know it has never been recorded). Even though it is only a short occasional piece, even in a few seconds Dutilleux's skill and musical flexibility was in evidence. I'm looking forward to catching up with L'arbre des songes this evening. The unusual percussion instrument, btw, is the cimbalom (most famously used by Kodaly in Hary Janos).

[Serial_Apologist]

The unusual percussion instrument, btw, is the cimbalom (most famously used by Kodaly in Hary Janos).

...also used in the extraordinary "Mystere a L'instant" of 1989, where it is silk spin-woven through massed string textures. Like yourself I am something of a Dutilleux fanatic. He seems to have managed over a long laboured career to blend everything of significance in 20th century music from Debussy on, from 12-tone through Messiaen and even Takemitsu to Ligeti, providing that rounded arc-like sense of a continuum to completion.

S-A

[BetweenTheStaves]

Looking at the very large number of microphones slung, I can't but help thinking that any muddy sound is going to depend on overmixing ..ie deciding to fiddle about with the faders all the time and also make the mix from a large number of mics. That is going to depend on the sound supervisor (if they are still called that) on the night. I can appreciate the need for spot mics if it's being televised but there's nowt wrong with just a couple of cardioids slung just in front of the orchestra with a second pair a bit further back. That's what they used to use. Not the 46 that I counted last night!

[makropulos]

"Yet again I marvel at this golden age of orchestral playing in London: do we know how lucky we are? "

When did this "golden age" begin? Coincidentally, I've spent all day listening to live concerts by the LSO, LPO and BBCSO from the 1970s and the standard of playing then was - on that evidence - as excellent as I remember it being: most impressive, in fact.

So, would I rather hear the LSO in the 1970s or 80s with the likes of Previn, Böhm , Celibidache and Abbado –ior the 2011 vintage with Gergiev? It's not just nostalgia that makes me say there's not much contest: the LSO has been a superb orchestra for a very long time and it's had some outstanding principal conductors and regular guests over many decades. Speaking (only) for myself, I've never been able to count Gergiev as one of those.

In other words, I think we've been lucky for quite a long time: in the early 1970s the RPO under Kempe was a superb orchestra (sadly I never heard it play with Beecham), as was the LPO under Haitink, Jochum and Boult at the same time (and it's on great form again with Jurowski). And so on. I don't think really good orchestral playing is anything that new in London - and as it happens I'm not a fan of the rather brittle sound Gergiev gets from the LSO either - but that's a more personal thing I suppose.

[Ventilhorn]

Looking at the very large number of microphones slung, I can't but help thinking that any muddy sound is going to depend on overmixing ..ie deciding to fiddle about with the faders all the time and also make the mix from a large number of mics. That is going to depend on the sound supervisor (if they are still called that) on the night. I can appreciate the need for spot mics if it's being televised but there's nowt wrong with just a couple of cardioids slung just in front of the orchestra with a second pair a bit further back. That's what they used to use. Not the 46 that I counted last night!

I am in total agreement. There used to be a saying among us in BBC Bristol

"... the less skilled the Audio Engineer, the larger the mixing desk"

2 cardiod main and 2 space mics further back is all that a good soundman requires.
Plus the occasional spot microphone, (preferably a "figure of eight" ribbon mic), for the soloist.

VH

[Roehre]

Being something of a Dutilleux fanatic, I was particularly interested to hear Slava's Fanfare, a work I only knew by name (as far as I know it has never been recorded). Even though it is only a short occasional piece, even in a few seconds Dutilleux's skill and musical flexibility was in evidence.

I was disappointed by the fact that in stead of the "promised" duration of 4 minutes of (for me also) unknown Dutilleux the piece only lasted some 90 seconds. But Dutilleux was instantly recognisable. Regarding being previously recorded: albeit dating from 1997 you even won't find it mentioned on the official Dutilleux website or Wikipedia .

[Roslynmuse]

I was disappointed by the fact that in stead of the "promised" duration of 4 minutes of (for me also) unknown Dutilleux the piece only lasted some 90 seconds. But Dutilleux was instantly recognisable. Regarding being previously recorded: albeit dating from 1997 you even won't find it mentioned on the official Dutilleux website or Wikipedia .

It's on the Wiki article under orchestral - for 'spatial ensemble' with no details of the scoring. A quick Google doesn't reveal its publisher, if indeed it is published (his recent works have been very slow to appear - his Le temps l'horloge isn't available yet, and the earlier Correspondences has only recently come on sale).

Short though Slava's Fanfare is, it isn't Dutilleux's shortest work - his Hommage à Nadia Boulanger of 1967 is 3 bars long, according to Caroline Potter's excellent book and catalogue. It's scored for soprano, three altos, clarinet, percussion and zither, text by Paul Valéry.

[makropulos]

It's on the Wiki article under orchestral - for 'spatial ensemble' with no details of the scoring. A quick Google doesn't reveal its publisher, if indeed it is published.

Yes it has a publisher, but no it isn't published (or rather, it's hire only):

http://www.alphonseleduc.com/orchdata/cham_d.htm

If you scroll to the bottom of that page, it's the last item. So Leduc (UMP) has it but the score and parts are only available on hire.

[Roslynmuse]

Yes it has a publisher, but no it isn't published (or rather, it's hire only):

http://www.alphonseleduc.com/orchdata/cham_d.htm

If you scroll to the bottom of that page, it's the last item. So Leduc (UMP) has it but the score and parts are only available on hire.

Many thanks, makropulos.

[Chris Newman]

Interesting to hear mention of current orchestral standards. I am inclined to agree with makropoulos and his summary of the LSO, LPO and RPO in the last forty years.

I think the regional orchestras and BBCPO are on a high at the moment. The CBSO, RLPO, BSO are as good as they were under the likes of Rattle, Groves and Silvestri. The Halle is as good as when Glorious John was in charge. The BBCPO has been on a high ever since Jan-Pascal Tortelier made them into the best ever French Orchestra. They have changed nationality and are a superb Italian/Russian band now. The BBCNOW and BBCSSO can be extraordinarily good as well. I have not heard the RSNO live for a long time.

The ROHCGO and ENO orchestras are in stupendous states of health. Because they rarely play outside the opera houses we forget how bloody good they are. I would say that Haitink and Pappano have lifted the ROHCGO to the position of joint third best orchestra in Britain. Edward Gardner has maintained the high standards of Paul Daniel, Mark Elder and Charles Mackerras at ENO. Colin Davis and Haitink set similar standards with the LSO. However, I think that the BBCSO has suddenly pulled its socks up to the same level: Jiri Belohlavek is clearly a fine orchestral builder. The top position in my recent experience has to be Esa-Pekka Salonen's Philharmonia which is as high as it was when HvK and Giulini were effectively bosses. I would go as far as saying I do not know any orchestra that can play as well. VPO, BPO, Chicago, Philadelphia...they are mere minnows at the moment.

[makropulos]

Chris, I'm so glad you mentioned the Philharmonia - and very embarrassed that I didn't in my original post. As you say, they are probably the most consistent of the lot, certainly in London. They play wonderfully for Salonen, but then they played at least as wonderfully for Christoph von Dohnányi and their lamented Principal Guest Conductor, Charles Mackerras. I know you admire him as much as I do, and his concerts with the Philharmonia were glorious occasions marked by absolutely wonderful playing from the orchestra as well as superb conducting. Back at the time I was thinking about (70s and 80s) the Philharmonia gave many wonderful concerts, though I only saw them with Klemperer once and was never terribly excited by his immediate successor - but they had some marvellous guest conductors at that time, and I remember several fabulous evenings at the Festival Hall. (One that sticks in the memory for some reason was an absolutely stunning performance of "Belshazzar's Feast" in the early 70s conducted by Rafael Frühbeck de Burgos - it was knockout stuff, and this was at the same time as Previn was giving superb performances of the same piece - but this one, for me, was even better). There was also a terrific Beethoven 9 with the [New] Philharmonia conducted by Boult in 1971 (on his birthday - 8 April - if I remember rightly) which I loved as an eager young concert-goer, but which the critics didn't like because he took the slow movement "too fast" - how times have changed, but Boult was always convinced that the slow movements of Beethoven 6 and 9 (especially) needed to be more flowing than was the norm at the time.

[prokkyshosty]

The last time I was a regular concertgoer in London was 1991-94 -- and if perhaps today is not a "golden age" then at least its a massive recovery from that period, which if I remember correctly wasn't exactly the best of times. The LPO was suffering through the Franz Welser-Most debacle; the RPO (in my memory anyway) was giving very shoddy concerts under Ashkenazy; and the LSO seemed to be walled up in the Barbican with Michael Tilson-Thomas doing a lot of arcane programming. I do remember articles saying 'the LSO can do better than MTT' etc.

Excepted from all this is the Philharmonia, which never failed to thrill me back then, under a young Esa-Pekka, Neeme Jarvi, and (speaking of Belshazzar's Feast) a couple of wonderful concerts under Sir David Willcocks that I shall never forget.

[3rd Viennese School]

I cant believe I still haven’t seen Prokofiev symphony no.5 live! I’ve seen 1, 2 and 6. You think they would do this one in Chatham.
Good to see it back at the Proms. A good assertive performance. I did think that the scherzo was so fast you couldn’t hear that tune properly. The trio- what musical invention. Unfortunatly, in the rowdy final stages of the finale the tritone brass before the final chord was too quiet- did anyone else think this?

3VS

[Ferretfancy]

The last time I was a regular concertgoer in London was 1991-94 -- and if perhaps today is not a "golden age" then at least its a massive recovery from that period, which if I remember correctly wasn't exactly the best of times. The LPO was suffering through the Franz Welser-Most debacle; the RPO (in my memory anyway) was giving very shoddy concerts under Ashkenazy; and the LSO seemed to be walled up in the Barbican with Michael Tilson-Thomas doing a lot of arcane programming. I do remember articles saying 'the LSO can do better than MTT' etc.

Excepted from all this is the Philharmonia, which never failed to thrill me back then, under a young Esa-Pekka, Neeme Jarvi, and (speaking of Belshazzar's Feast) a couple of wonderful concerts under Sir David Willcocks that I shall never forget.

I started serious concert going in the early 1950's, and regularly since then. I think one of the reasons for a golden age back then was that orchestras had fewer guest conductors and more concerts with their principal conductors. So we had a long reign of Beecham with the RPO, Klempere with the Philharmonia, preceded by Karajan, Barbirolli with the Halle and so on. That generation of conductors had many years of experience in which they could grow into their art. I have no complaints about the likes of Jurowski and his generation, but we are probably not hearing them at their best yet.