Prom 51: Monday 22nd August 2011 at 7.30 p.m. (Wagner, Liszt, Volans, Brahms)

[3rd Viennese School]

The Kevin Volans was interesting but it did remind me of part 1 of a Lutoslawski symphony. You know, bits, stop, bits, stop etc.The piano reminds me of one having to answer the call of nature. I always give contemporary works a go so I will hear it again in the office at work on its repeat. He works the opposite of Stockhausen-the empty page and see where it takes you? Not many composers do this, I think. Heard some of the composer portrait which was good, but then I had some keyboard stuff of my own to do.Of course, Kevin Volans also turns up on hear and now.

Onto the only Brahms compostion that’s any good. The first mvts good- although it could be Beethoven’s Unfinished 10th (I mean that literally- the recording of it!) or even Dvorak’s missing first symphony”! The repeat brings out the classical nature of mvt 1. They went straight into the finale without a break which threw me. As if the conductor was saying “ not going to let those bxxxxxxx clap inbetween mvts again!”

3VS

[Tony Halstead]

How I hate 'attacas' or 'segues' that aren't requested by the composer but are nevertheless done merely as an 'interpretative whim' by the conductor.

[Bryn]

Looks like the iPlayer team did not think much of the Brahms 1st last night. They appear to be holding it back from the on demand facility, and the HDS version cut out here shortly after the end of the Volans. Only part 1 of the Prom is available on demand, though later programmes are up and ready.

[Serial_Apologist]

Looks like the iPlayer team did not think much of the Brahms 1st last night. They appear to be holding it back from the on demand facility, and the HDS version cut out here shortly after the end of the Volans. Only part 1 of the Prom is available on demand, though later programmes are up and ready.

Using the Prom iplayer the other day for a Cadogan concert I missed, I did notice only 1 "track" being available - and not a particularly interesting one, btw. I presumed this to be normal practice with the proms. Thank goodness R3 almost, if not always, put Jazz Line-Up and Jazz on 3 broadcasts on in their entirety!

[Bryn]

If the second part of last night's Prom (and the full interval feature) are not up an running by this evening I will use the horribly convoluted contact system to alert the iPlayer team to the problem.

[Ah, the Brahms is now claimed to be available for the next 6 days, but is isn't (as yet). Hopefully it will be in the very near future.]

[[The Brahms is now up and running. However, at the start Penny Gore states that the on demand version can now be hear in an HD Sound version for 7 days after broadcast. This seems very good news indeed, but how? I see no such option when accessing the on demand iPlayer version via the schedule.]]

[cavatina]

I listened to the new work by Kevin Volans intently, and it really held my attention. Lovely sounds, each orchestral intervention clearly judged to make an impact, together with the changes in tempo/rhythm, and a wonderful period of near stasis about halfway through. Can definitely hear the influence of both Stockhausen and Reich referred to above. Best contemporary piece I've heard this season, and the works performed on the composer profile afterwards make me want to hear more!

I am afraid that was not the reaction of many people near the rail during the interval.

But like all subjective reactions, they have little-to-nothing to do with the actual merit of the piece. Saying "like/didn't like" is one thing, but it's never a good idea to start slinging around "good/bad" until you have a deeper understanding of the work and know how to articulate any concerns you have in a constructive way.

Why is it so hard for most people to admit that a composition they don't respond to personally can still have value? If a work doesn't grab me--and I don't "get it" to boot-- I'd rather pass over it in silence than embarrass myself by showing a brassy confidence in my ignorance and intolerance. Especially not in print.

[Quarky]

I listened to the new work by Kevin Volans intently, and it really held my attention. Lovely sounds, each orchestral intervention clearly judged to make an impact, together with the changes in tempo/rhythm, and a wonderful period of near stasis about halfway through. .......... Best contemporary piece I've heard this season,

Yes same here, it is the best work I have heard this year - although I will have to play it a few more times to fully appreciate it.

As for the reaction of the Prommers by the rail, I do recall being stared at most disapprovingly, when I clapped heartily at an early work by Schoenberg. Obviously the hard-line Prommers have their own musical tastes, but if it extended to modern works, then I shouldn't imagine they would stand for hours on end in all weathers waiting to get in to the general fare on offer.

By the way listening to Birtwistle the other day - Angel Fighter - isn't this a case of:
No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

[Serial_Apologist]

But like all subjective reactions, they have little-to-nothing to do with the actual merit of the piece. Saying "like/didn't like" is one thing, but it's never a good idea to start slinging around "good/bad" until you have a deeper understanding of the work and know how to articulate any concerns you have in a constructive way.

Why is it so hard for most people to admit that a composition they don't respond to personally can still have value? If a work doesn't grab me--and I don't "get it" to boot-- I'd rather pass over it in silence than embarrass myself by showing a brassy confidence in my ignorance and intolerance. Especially not in print.

You are of course assuming that those opponents of the Volans were criticising the piece in the manner you claim. How do you know they weren't answering Chris's clearly articulated views point-by-point?

[cavatina]

As for the reaction of the Prommers by the rail, I do recall being stared at most disapprovingly, when I clapped heartily at an early work by Schoenberg. Obviously the hard-line Prommers have their own musical tastes, but if it extended to modern works, then I shouldn't imagine they would stand for hours on end in all weathers waiting to get in to the general fare on offer.

My taste definitely extends to modern works, and I can assure you most nights I'll be clapping right along with you. I've been the recipient of the "death glare from hell" myself on many occasions, but I'm not taking it personally. And I try not to turn my nose at any programme: attending everything has given me the opportunity to rid myself of old prejudices and make a real effort to hear everything anew.

And as for queuing, I've found my summer afternoons this year to be very enjoyable and productive: I've devoured an enormous amount of classic poetry and literature from Hobbes to Charles Lamb to Rimbaud, and filled an entire notebook with my own writing. In fact, I just had to go buy a second one--all this glorious music put me in such a creative frame of mind, I've generated enough ideas to keep me busy the rest of the year.

Having a rich inner life and enjoying your own company is nothing to be ashamed of.

[cavatina]

But like all subjective reactions, they have little-to-nothing to do with the actual merit of the piece. Saying "like/didn't like" is one thing, but it's never a good idea to start slinging around "good/bad" until you have a deeper understanding of the work and know how to articulate any concerns you have in a constructive way.

Why is it so hard for most people to admit that a composition they don't respond to personally can still have value? If a work doesn't grab me--and I don't "get it" to boot-- I'd rather pass over it in silence than embarrass myself by showing a brassy confidence in my ignorance and intolerance. Especially not in print.

You are of course assuming that those opponents of the Volans were criticising the piece in the manner you claim. How do you know they weren't answering Chris's clearly articulated views point-by-point?

Because I was on the rail last night and I'm chiefly talking about myself, having said some quite beastly things that don't bear repeating. It didn't grab me, I don't get it, I should have passed over it in silence, but I didn't. Believe it or not, I was trying to atone for my brassy ignorance and intolerance by being fair-minded here. Nothing unusual, really.

[Serial_Apologist]

Because I was on the rail last night and I'm chiefly talking about myself, having said some quite beastly things that don't bear repeating. It didn't grab me, I don't get it, I should have passed over it in silence, but I didn't. Believe it or not, I was trying to atone for my brassy ignorance and intolerance by being fair-minded here. Nothing unusual, really.

Ah - you didn't say it was you, you see.

Having vented my own prejudices on Volans in an earlier post I'll wait and re-offer them in updated terms on Thursday

BTW sorry if you missed the Birtwistle at the Cadogan on Sunday - if it was you on t'other side: couldn't quite make out - if you hadn't heard the piece before THAT would have certainly challenged your prejudices. It certainly did mine!

[barber olly]

Nearly 50 mins by my watch - although didnt feel that slow in the hall - I only when out of interest I took a look at the watch did i notice the speed !

I think the ending was about as good an finish to it as I have heard. The less said about the rest of the concert the better !

But why did he dive straight in at the beginning whilst tha applause was still dying away - reminded me of Andre Previn's Music Night when he told the story of the difficulty of starting Don Juan and how unsure conductors made use of the audience to conceal a dodgy start! I wouldn't have thought the Brahms 1 timps had that problem!

[amac4165]

But why did he dive straight in at the beginning whilst tha applause was still dying away - reminded me of Andre Previn's Music Night when he told the story of the difficulty of starting Don Juan and how unsure conductors made use of the audience to conceal a dodgy start! I wouldn't have thought the Brahms 1 timps had that problem!

yes I had forgotten about that start ! The orchestra must have been expecting it though !

[Chris Newman]

Asked by pilamenon. And what was your own view, Chris?

I was impressed by Kevin Volans' 1,000 Bars and String Quartet No 10 played at the Pre-Prom by students from the RAM. The first dealt with beautifully subtle modulating sonorities whilst the second was driven forward (rather like less tuneful Dvorak or Villa Lobos when they are in trainspotting mode). The percussion piece

Asanga

could have been by anyone or even an improvisation.

The Piano Concerto No 3, extraordinarily well prepared and played was, I am afraid, one of those pieces that I used to hear so often in the sixties. Basically, I like a lot of modern music and try to take it in and give it a chance. I love some Birtwistle, a lot of Boulez, Stockhausen and Maxwell Davies, most of Messiaen, all of Henze and Tippett. However the concerto left me cold. It was not very individual: it could have been any of the Darmstadt tinkle-bonk crowd. I will try again this week but at the moment I give it a thumbs down.

[Jonathan]

I thought the Liszt was excellent (then again, I would). I missed the Wagner and the Brahms but intend to listen again (assuming it's working ok now) before it vanishes into the ether forever...