Prom 49: Saturday 20th August at 7.30 p.m. (Brahms/Haitink 2)

[Il Grande Inquisitor]

Two thoroughly enjoyable Brahms concerts, both enjoyed via the television. The clarity and balance of the COE, with its smaller string forces, very much reminded me of the recordings by the same orchestra under Paavo Berglund, another conductor who is content to let the music speak without too much interference.

[cavatina]

From the Arts Desk review:

Last night we had pink and lilac splodgy light-projections poured around the back wall of the orchestra, LED light strips in purple and gold like something from an IKEA Christmas sale, and most of all some darned intrusive filming. With the flamboyant ceiling light racks, a giant camera gantry wheeling about on the right like a crane, and chaps whizzing about to catch a little close-up of the triangle, it was all rather like watching a concert on a building site erecting a stadium rock platform.

You know, I really couldn't have cared less about any of that-- not even the camera which occasionally wheeled in front of me and made me bend at the knees to see the pianist's hands. After forty-eight Proms in a row, all the visual distractions just blend into the background...often, I'm so lost in the music I'm not looking at anything at all. Though I'm sure I won't forget the way the light illuminated Haitink's hands as the music died away, nor one of the smiles he gave Ax between movements...details like this make live concerts so magical.

[Tristan Klingsor]

I've often wondered about the authenticity of the Meiningen argument for smaller orchestral resources and the assumption that this was what Brahms was a) writing for b) heard. The 4th Symphony was the only one actually premiered in Meiningen although the others were apparently played through there. In an age before demos and computer-based orchestral mock-ups, wouldn't the try-out with smaller resources be the (admittedly privileged) means of checking a piece out? In other words, weren't the try-outs no more than the 19th century equivalent of the above? Turnage engages in a similar practice with live musicians even to this day.
Having said that, I do enjoy the reduced forces' versions (I love the Mackerras/SCO recordings) almost as much as the full fat ones!

[salymap]

From the Arts Desk review:



You know, I really couldn't have cared less about any of that-- not even the camera which occasionally wheeled in front of me and made me bend at the knees to see the pianist's hands. After forty-eight Proms in a row, all the visual distractions just blend into the background...often, I'm so lost in the music I'm not looking at anything at all. Though I'm sure I won't forget the way the light illuminated Haitink's hands as the music died away, nor one of the smiles he gave Ax between movements...details like this make live concerts so magical.

Personally I hate all those colours at the RAH, which make the concerts very hard tolook at, both on iPlayer
and the big TV. It does make the dear old building look garish and tatty, whereas it used to be just tatty.

[Ferretfancy]

And no childish inter-movement applauding from the juvenile elements of the promenaders, I presume?
These people really do lower the standards of the proms nowadays allied with some very indifferent performances from some orchestras and soloists alike.
The Haitink concerts have been revelatory with the magical Emanuel Ax as soloist in two marvellous concerti.

I've no wish to be rude, but once again we have an ignorant and childish slur on those of us who Prom, whether in the Arena or the Gallery. Applause between movements nearly always starts in the seats, quite often in the less expensive ones, but in the stalls as well. The Audience in the Arena have usually been queuing for hours, including season ticket holders, and they are the most dedicated listeners in the hall who have gone to a great deal of trouble to be there. I regularly find myself in the company of practising musicians, students, and one or two music critics who take the trouble to join us to share in the dedication to fine performances. There's always a spirited discussion afterwards.

It isn't the real music lovers who cough and applaud in the wrong places, it's the husbands and wives who can't get away from the hall quickly enough. Forgetting the music as soon as it has ended, they trip down to South Kensington discussing loudly the arrangements for cousin Edie's wedding, or whether to use the third set of traffic lights at before their local roundabout.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I've no wish to be rude, but once again we have an ignorant and childish slur on those of us who Prom, whether in the Arena or the Gallery. Applause between movements nearly always starts in the seats, quite often in the less expensive ones, but in the stalls as well. The Audience in the Arena have usually been queuing for hours, including season ticket holders, and they are the most dedicated listeners in the hall who have gone to a great deal of trouble to be there. I regularly find myself in the company of practising musicians, students, and one or two music critics who take the trouble to join us to share in the dedication to fine performances. There's always a spirited discussion afterwards.

It isn't the real music lovers who cough and applaud in the wrong places, it's the husbands and wives who can't get away from the hall quickly enough. Forgetting the music as soon as it has ended, they trip down to South Kensington discussing loudly the arrangements for cousin Edie's wedding, or whether to use the third set of traffic lights at before their local roundabout.

You are not being rude, Ferretfancy. You speak only the truth. When I go to Prom concerts, I generally sit at the front of the stalls, thereby getting an excellent view of the arena. I've never seen inappropriate applause being started by promenaders. Generally, the level of consideration of others in the arena is of a high level, though I do recall a father standing with a child on his shoulders for much of one concert. He should have booked 2 seats instead.

[Simon B]

Applause between movements nearly always starts in the seats, quite often in the less expensive ones, but in the stalls as well. The Audience in the Arena have usually been queuing for hours, including season ticket holders, and they are the most dedicated listeners in the hall who have gone to a great deal of trouble to be there

Ferretfancy - while I tend to agree with the broad sweep of your point here, as it's one you've made repeatedly I'd just like to speak up in defence of some/most of we stalls dwellers. Well, stalls G/H anyway! You won't catch me coughing or applauding between movements (although I feel that it's a sufficiently contentious matter that it's not my prerogative to decree that others shouldn't do the latter). And the assumption that season ticket holders are necessarily the most dedicated listeners isn't automatically true either. I go in the stalls, despite knowing the sound and concentration levels to be better in the arena in general, precisely because of the level of dedication needed to be there. Namely either a 300 or 120 mile round trip from home or work respectively, taking unpaid hours off for weekday concerts etc etc. I haven't got time to queue for the arena like I used to, and clearly a season ticket isn't a viable proposition - nor are my tastes broad enough for it to make sense. Sometimes, but only sometimes, the whole cost and palaver is worth it.

Back to the original topic - enjoyed both Haitink/Brahms Proms, the un-egotistical natural flow of everything. But I'm glad I opted to stay home and listen in via radio/TV - with the reduced forces I don't think the RAH would've been a sympathetic venue other than for those closer to the stage. Also interesting to see many familiar faces from other orchestras (timps/percussion from Bournemouth SO, 4th horn regularly plays horn 7/8/(93!) for the orchestras in NW England in big rackets etc).

[vinteuil]

well, I'm a traditionalist. I approve of applause between movements.

[cavatina]

I've no wish to be rude, but once again we have an ignorant and childish slur on those of us who Prom, whether in the Arena or the Gallery. Applause between movements nearly always starts in the seats, quite often in the less expensive ones, but in the stalls as well. The Audience in the Arena have usually been queuing for hours, including season ticket holders, and they are the most dedicated listeners in the hall who have gone to a great deal of trouble to be there.

And it's also not true that everyone proms because they're poor or cheap.

When I tried to get a sense of my "elasticity of demand" for an Arena season pass, I figured it was easily a factor of 10: if they decided to raise the price from £190 to to £1,900, I'd gladly pay it without blinking an eye. (Do you have any idea how easy it is to drop that much or more for prime seats at European summer festivals?) Even more surprisingly, it's still a good deal--divide £1,900 by 76, and it comes out to 25 pounds a concert. In other words, a bargain with a capital B.

Also, there's the sheer convenience of being able to reserve spots for everything at once. Ideally, I think I might have preferred to buy a season pass for the lefthand stalls seat closest to the stage. I thought about it, but the main thing that put me off was not knowing where I'd place in the ticket-buying queue and facing the prospect of sold-out concerts. Failing that, I'm happy where I am.

For what it's worth, I find "queuing" no different from any other afternoon spent outside reading, writing, and daydreaming in the sunshine. Anyone who finds their own company intolerably boring really ought to work on developing a richer inner life.

[vinteuil]

Anyone who finds their own company intolerably boring really ought to work on developing a richer inner life.

Once again, we thank our contributor for her well-meant (if grammatically questionable) and in-no-way-patronising advice.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I think this is an instance where people avoid correct grammar because to do so would appear either sexist or clumsy.

Anyone who finds his own company intolerably boring really ought to work on developing a richer inner life

is correct, but would appear to favour the male gender.

Anyone who finds his/her own company intolerably boring really ought to work on developing a richer inner life

is not quite the way you would drop it into a conversation, though it may well be the better solution.

[Ferretfancy]

Just to clarify, naturally there is a huge section of the Proms audience who are attentive, and there are always newcomers to the Arena who are not always sure of the correct form. What I was objecting to was the bald statement that misbehaviour is automatically the fault of those who stand, when it is emphatically not the case.

Back to the thread-- one of the best features on the last two nights has been the antiphonal placing of the strings, and the vibrancy achieved with a slightly smaller than normal orchestra with the beautiful phrasing from winds and brass. Perhaps some of the 'dark brown' sound that you get with orchestras like the VPO was missing, but how turgid their playing was with Mehta a few years ago compared with what we heard last night!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Perhaps some of the 'dark brown' sound that you get with orchestras like the VPO was missing, but how turgid their playing was with Mehta a few years ago compared with what we heard last night!

Did you really think so? The VPO gave the same Haydn, Berg, Stravinsky concert at The Sage, Gatehead just before going down to London to give the same concert at the Proms and it was quite stunning.

[Ferretfancy]

Hello Alpensinfonie,

Time flashes by! The VPO concert you are referring to was indeed at the Proms on 7th September 2005 after Edinburgh. Pretty good I thought, although not much power in the Rite of Spring. I was referring specifically to their Brahms 4, which they gave on 11th September 2009, Webern's Passacaglia, Don Quixote with the orchestra's principal cello and viola, and the Brahms.
I'm always finding myself thinking that something happened two years ago, when it was nearer ten! I was certainly not meaning to knock the marvellous Vienna Phil. but that particular Brahms didn't really take off with them in the way that it did the other night under Haitink.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Oh, I see. I think I recorded the 2009 one, so I'll check it out.

I was very disappointed that the Vienna Phil didn't make an appearance this season, having played at the Proms every two years for some time now.