Prom 35: Wednesday 10th August at 7.00 p.m. (Liszt, Glière, Rachmaninov)

[Ventilhorn]

Ventihorn, I have to agree. Just back from the hall - blimey talk about a game of two halves, John ...

First half: dull overture / tone poem or whatever Mazeppa is and then the Glière.... The first movement might be quite nice music in the vocal chords of an appealing singer, but my own (demanding I grant you) taste in singers would exclude Ms Tynan from the stage - a vibrato wide enough to drive a car across, and a sort of icky "seriosity" that I find... well, difficult. And the last movement of the Glière is just schmalzy sub-Disney sound-track muzak We were all laughing - and not in a good way.

But what a different second half. A superb (I am tempted to say great) performance of the Rachmaninov - beautifully played, paced, balanced... Precision to the nth degree, yet rich and emotional; lithe, mobile and yet with a natural-sounding rubato that was all about the music. I've heard this piece 100s of times, and actually played in it - and I still heard things I've never noticed before. Best I've heard since hearing Mariss Janssons' dad Arvid play it in Leningrad (as it then was) with the Leningrad Phil. in the early 80s. Triumphant stuff from Bournemouth!!

Thanks for that, Caliban.

In answer to Ein Alpensinfonie's request for me to elaborate, I would say this:

Taking aside those works which require huge numbers or massive expense, the number of times a work has been performed since it was written gives a good indication, not only of its popularity, but also of its musical worth.

I would guess that "Les Preludes" has been performed at least 100 times more than "Mazeppa"

Nevertheless, I listened with an open mind (and open ears) but could find nothing there to give a reason for its performance; apart from its apparent Ukrainian connection. "Tasso" would, IMO, been a far better choice to open a concert - more dynamic, better scoring.

As for the Gliere, it was ludicrous and not helped by an alleged coloratura who never quite got there and whose sound was like someone cutting through sheet metal.

The Rachmaninoff was superbly played. Personally, I find it over sentimental and too much use of that arpeggio with the added
major seventh (I prefer SR's 1st symphony, which sounds a lot less like film music!) but the contrast in the orchestra's performance in the first and second halves of the concert gave a good indication of which of the pieces they were enjoying.

VH

[NickWraight]

The BSO sounded very warmly glowing last night, old fashioned in the right way with a welcome lack of bright penetrating string sound. Many round me in the front Arena were not overly impressed but I loved it. Not the greatest clarinettist for the Rachmaninov slow movement - Jack McGaw from the Philharmonia sticks in the memory from an 80s Rattle pair of performances, RFH and RAH in the same season if I recall correctly.

As ever the Liszt left me cold even with a good a performance as that - not Torquino Tasso please, again there was an 80s Prom rendition BBCSO/Zagrosek which was programmed at 15mins and was still going at 30mins!

Similarly the Gliere, composed in 1943 for heaven's sake, but I would like to have heard it further back as the edge to the voice was a tad much which would be smoothed off with distance. The optional high F at the end was a mistake but otherwise pretty good.

Apart from the lack of the 1st movement's exposition repeat in the Rach we got it uncut (hurrah), who recalls the heavily snipped Kurt Sanderling performance in the 96? Karabbits was spot on with the tempi, not being tempted to wallow, and having the right amount of energy and forward momentum. The whole coupled with delicious playing.

[cavatina]

Taking aside those works which require huge numbers or massive expense, the number of times a work has been performed since it was written gives a good indication, not only of its popularity, but also of its musical worth.

I can't agree with this. The concept of "musical worth" subsumes the question of "to whom?" Fashions and trends in concert programming shift for any number of extramusical reasons, and some styles of music will never be popular. Just because most people have never heard the works of C.V. Alkan doesn't mean it lacks merit. And everyone and their dog knowing [insert popular drivel of your choice here] doesn't make it intrinsically worth hearing.

The Glière certainly wasn't to my taste, but it was interesting and amusing to note the ways in which the soprano appeared to have a wonderfully, ridiculously oversized personality. Tacky? Sure, but what an entertainer! I suppose I was laughing in a bad and a good way.

[Chris Newman]

If I am "Po-faced" so be it. There are composers who can write tremendous tone poems that make me cry, feel excited, go through every emotion possible in some 15 minutes. Dvorak, Sibelius, Smetana and Tchaikovsky were experts in these pieces. Granted they were much influenced by Liszt but he was a beginner by comparison and usually his tone poems/overtures are loud sets of variations.

[EdgeleyRob]

The Rachmaninov and Liszt were excellent, I didn't really enjoy the Gliere piece though.

[Nick Armstrong]

Wagner loved it enough to model the Ride of Valkyries on it

Mak, I'd be interested to know on what basis you make the two contentions in that sentence... Not doubting you're right, just interested to know.

Anyway, I'm not aware of shaping my own tastes in music - or in anything else - around Wagner's

I'm afraid 'Mazeppa' simply sounds repetitive, crude and pretty unremarkable to me - even if it was subsequently used as a sort of musical breeze block upon which to construct a much better piece.

[Ventilhorn]

I'm afraid 'Mazeppa' simply sounds repetitive, crude and pretty unremarkable to me - even if it was subsequently used as a sort of musical breeze block upon which to construct a much better piece.

Nicely put, Caliban.

I am in total agreement!

VH

[Chris Newman]

I have just got round to the first half of the concert. I am still not converted to Mazeppa: sorry. The Glière was a pleasant bit of froth. Ailish Tynan was not as wobbly as predicted. She was nowhere near as vibrato laden as the lady I heard warble through Rachmaninov's "Vocalise" last week. Well, now I can hear the Second Symphony again.

[makropulos]

Caliban, it's all put succinctly by Kenneth Hamilton in his chapter on Wagner and Liszt in "Wagner and his World" (Princeton University Press, 2009) and I must have been thinking of that when I posted last night. Here's what Hamilton has to say (p. 56):

It is not surprising that of all Liszt's compositions, Wagner reserved "a special place of honour" for the delicate and restrained symphonic poem Orpheus, although he could not deny the "great drive" of Mazeppa, even if it did end with a bang (his admiration for Mazeppa is enshrined in the wonderful "Rider of the Valkyries").

Hamilton adds a footnote reference to Wagner's My Life, p. 537.

[Panjandrum]

I'm afraid 'Mazeppa' simply sounds repetitive, crude and pretty unremarkable to me - even if it was subsequently used as a sort of musical breeze block upon which to construct a much better piece.

Jeez, talk about a broken record Caliban. Given the repetitive nature of "The Ride" I hardly think you have illustrated you argument about a far more sophisticated piece convincingly. Look, musicians of the calibre of Haitink, Brendel, Barenboim, Beecham, Bernstein, Masur et al have queued up to record the great Ferencz. Maybe, given your less than flattering avatar, you are motivated by feelings of personal jealousy for great male beauty - i don't know.

[Nick Armstrong]

Jeez, talk about a broken record Caliban. Given the repetitive nature of "The Ride" I hardly think you have illustrated you argument about a far more sophisticated piece convincingly. Look, musicians of the calibre of Haitink, Brendel, Barenboim, Beecham, Bernstein, Masur et al have queued up to record the great Ferencz. Maybe, given your less than flattering avatar, you are motivated by feelings of personal jealousy for great male beauty - i don't know.

What a bizarre posting, Panny. It admirably attests to life's rich mysteries, not least as regards taste in music.

On the subject of avatars, who's the pot-bellied cove in yours?

[Barbirollians]

A rather forgettable concert I thought . The BSO strings simply did not have the richness and sweep for a great performance of the Rachmaninov symphony for me.

[Dave2002]

The Rachmaninov and Liszt were excellent, I didn't really enjoy the Gliere piece though.

I've heard the Gliere before on recordings. It is odd, though perhaps not unpleasant. Maybe some composer had to do this, just to test whether it could be done at all?

Re the Rachmaninov 2, I thought that was really excellent, so I'm listening to it again via iPlayer. I didn't realise there were touches of portamenti though - wonder if they were deliberate. The sound via iPlayer is OK, but nothing like as good as in the hall on the night. I disagree completely with Barbirollians about this being forgetable - sorry - but to me it was very good.

[Nick Armstrong]

I didn't realise there were touches of portamenti though - wonder if they were deliberate.

Those portamenti (in the romantic bit of the scherzo, and its reprise) seem to be de rigeur these days. I think that they feature in the new Pappano recording too - that is the one I have listened to the most recently, and I found I was almost expecting the portamenti... Might be better to do it second time round only...

[bluestateprommer]

I disagree completely with Barbirollians about this being forgetable - sorry - but to me it was very good.

I agree with Dave2002, as I thought that the Karabits/Bournemouth Prom was a very fine concert. True, the Liszt is bombastic as all get out, kind of good pre-cinema film music, at the risk of sounding patronizing. The Gliere was pleasant to listen too, and Ailish Tynan did have her share of vibrato in the voice, though not so exaggeratedly much that one could drive a truck through it, as some thought. I have to say that I saw her perform at the First Night's In Tune event, singing several selections and doing a short interview. I didn't know what she was like as a person, and I will confess to being rather taken aback at how bubbly a personality she is, or to use a fairly common American description, "perky". But she was definitely genial and very happy-go-lucky in her manner, which also came across when she did the quick intermission interview.

Karabits led the Rachmaninov splendidly done and paced it well. It is true that the Bournemouth strings lack the classic Philadelphia Sound (and, as a sidebar, given the on-going meltdown in Philadelphia, in a year, the Philadelphia Orchestra may not have that sound either), but they did fine. I haven't yet seen Karabits live here in the US, but he's on the radar should he guest-conduct in the neighborhood any time soon, given the good things that I've heard about him.