Prom 29: Friday 5th August at 7.30. p.m. (Mahler 2)

[Mahlerei]

pilamenon

Yes, indeed. Dudamel brings something different to this music. I once saw a video of him rehearsing the SBO in Mahler 1 and talking to an invited audience at the same time. He made the point that, when it comes to rhythm, he has to explain it to his players in terms of the 'street music' they know so well. It's a completely different milieu and Dudamel is unique in his ability to connect with and train these young players. I have most of their recordings and - with the exception of a misfiring Mahler 5 - they're well worth hearing. I have great admiration for youth orchestras generally, and this one in particular.

Truth is, I'd rather pay to hear Dudamel than Rattle.

(Takes cover.)

[BudgieJane]

were there many of those on Friday?

(tell me to buzz off if I'm annoying you with my silly questions)

There are almost always some errors in a performance. Does it matter, and, if so, when does it matter?

Your questions aren't silly.

To me, reading a score during the performance would be counter-productive, as the live occasion is as much a visual stimulant as it is an aural one. This Dudamel Prom is a case in point; reading a score would simply remind you of how it should go, and not how it is going. It didn't take long to get the measure of this performance and adjust one's antennae accordingly. Thereafter, the visuals - the fierce concentration visible in the eyes of those young players/singers and the sheer theatricality of it all - add to the overall experience. As I said earlier, a performance to treasure, if not necessarily one I'd wish to hear again, simply because it worked so well in the moment. Once the critical faculties start kicking in some of that magic is lost.

Um -- when reading a score, I raise my eyes therefrom often and look at the players. On Friday I even turned around and looked up to the gallery to see if I could see the off-stage group (I couldn't). I still see all the things you mention. Don't forget we also had the distractions of the television cameras, one on rails right in front of us; to me that just adds to the entertainment (i.e. I don't let it worry me, and we can see things in the camera's monitor screen that we can't see direct).

I agree with my honorable friend, Cavatina. I am getting the best of both worlds.

Truth is, I'd rather pay to hear Dudamel than Rattle.

(Takes cover.)

I'd like to hear both.

[Paul N]

I don't know this symphony and missed almost all the first movement: still, I enjoyed it very much and thought the orchestra was good (but hadn't they overdone the hair gel? - somewhat distracting watching on TV).

However, the "O Röschen rot!" moment was something else - a different level - really impressed by Anna Larsson. And it was good to hear the choir going full out at the end. Overall verdict: excellent.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I haven't heard it [yet] but it strikes me that it would be a bit demoralising for a choir or orchestra to see the entire audience, or the majority of them, with their noses stuck in scores.

I remember attending a performance of Elgar's Dream of Gerontius, sitting on the front row with the score. "Gerontius" was directly in front of me and found it quite amusing. This wasn't subtle vocal score following. It wasn't even the Novello miniature score. It was the mighty Elgar Edition full score. Possibly that was a bit OTT.
But I don't think score following is necessarily annoying for the performers, but it may be antisocial in that it can be distracting for other members of the audience - there are many more page-turns involved than when following a libretto.

[EdgeleyRob]

Watching on TV it came across as a wonderful occasion and performance.I thought the choirs and soloists were superb.(oh, and I can't read scores)

[Uncle Monty]

With some exceptions, you're a pretty cold-hearted lot, aren't you? Stop comparing it with performances, live or recorded, by past or even present masters. Look at it for what it was - real, impassioned, imperfect, utterly uplifting. Look at the concentration, the faces of the singers, Anna Larsson's tear-filled eyes. Hear the ecstatic response of the audience. Perhaps they aren't all experienced, perhaps they aren't thinking of Abbado and Tennstedt, but are living in the moment of real live music-making. If you remain unmoved you must be made of stone!

Those were my feelings too. I know I can be accused of insufficient criticality, but it's more that I refuse to look very hard for reasons not to enjoy a performance. If a particular performance simply doesn't do it for you, that's fair enough, but I suspect that more often criticism arises because the listener doesn't hear what he or she is used/expects/wants to hear. I have heard (and been asked to play!) tempi that shocked and/or alienated me, but I believe things are worth a try in the attempt to illuminate or clarify a piece, especially a very well-known one.

I'm intrigued by Jane Sullivan's saying that one reason for studying the score during a performance is to be able to spot bum notes (though she does go on to imply that they don't usually matter much)! This does seem to be rather like what Barry McKenzie used to call "enjoying oneself in reverse" While accepting that an accomplished score reader may be getting things from a performance that others are not getting, I'd say this is not exactly giving oneself up to the experience, is it?!

[mercia]

There are almost always some errors in a performance. Does it matter, and, if so, when does it matter?

good questions to which ................. I don't know the answers

[BudgieJane]

I'm intrigued by Jane Sullivan's saying that one reason for studying the score during a performance is to be able to spot bum notes (though she does go on to imply that they don't usually matter much)!

I think you are putting too much weight on the bum notes thing. Bum notes happen, and often you can spot them without the score, for example the phrase in the first movement of Mahler 2 that the first horn ran out of breath on. And of course it is easy to spot a split note in the brass and a squeak from the woodwind.

They don't matter much, because the important thing is the overall performance, not little bits of it. They matter a lot if the performance is full of them, but a professional orchestra or a youth orchestra (i.e. an orchestra aspiring to professional status) should not be making heaps of mistakes in the first place.

[Nick Armstrong]

good questions to which ................. I don't know the answers

Likewise. Could be the (temporary, one hopes) epitaph for the AA thread, mercia

[Nick Armstrong]

To me, reading a score during the performance would be counter-productive, as the live occasion is as much a visual stimulant as it is an aural one. This Dudamel Prom is a case in point; reading a score would simply remind you of how it should go, and not how it is going. It didn't take long to get the measure of this performance and adjust one's antennae accordingly. Thereafter, the visuals - the fierce concentration visible in the eyes of those young players/singers and the sheer theatricality of it all - add to the overall experience. As I said earlier, a performance to treasure, if not necessarily one I'd wish to hear again, simply because it worked so well in the moment. Once the critical faculties start kicking in some of that magic is lost.

Completely agreed, Mahlerei. I would never dream of taking a score to a concert. Indeed, I find it unaccountably (and yes, I know, Jane, unreasonably) irritating if I find myself next to someone who has. Not least because when that's happened, I've found that the 'swoosh' sound made when the person turns the page each time is an intrusive and inevitably-regular annoyance. But Jane, I'm sure your silent page turning is exemplary

[remdataram]

Is 131 replies a record for a thread concerning a specific performance of a solitary piece of music?

Does this reflect the (still) growing popularity of Mahler?

[StephenO]

With some exceptions, you're a pretty cold-hearted lot, aren't you? Stop comparing it with performances, live or recorded, by past or even present masters. Look at it for what it was - real, impassioned, imperfect, utterly uplifting. Look at the concentration, the faces of the singers, Anna Larsson's tear-filled eyes. Hear the ecstatic response of the audience. Perhaps they aren't all experienced, perhaps they aren't thinking of Abbado and Tennstedt, but are living in the moment of real live music-making. If you remain unmoved you must be made of stone!

Well said, Mary. Comparisons are all very well but every interpretation needs to bring its own unique and special quality to a piece such as this - and Dudamel's certainly did. Impassioned and uplifting just about sum it up. It may not be the ideal library choice (for that I'd turn to Tennstedt, CBSO/Rattle, Fischer or Jurowski's recent recording) but as a live concert performance (albeit one I only heard on R3 and watched on BBC2) it certainly did it for me. The first movement, although slow, was deeply moving, the choir and soloists were magnificent and the off-stage brass brought tears to my eyes. The ecstatic applause was more than justified.

When considering Dudamel's age, it's worth remembering that Mahler himself was in his early 30s when he composed this symphony.

[Norfolk Born]

Is 131 replies a record for a thread concerning a specific performance of a solitary piece of music?

Does this reflect the (still) growing popularity of Mahler?

A Haitink Proms performance of a Mahler symphony a few years ago generated a lot of replies on the 'old' Radio 3 messageboards - again, a lot of people thought it was too slow.

[StephenO]

Is 131 replies a record for a thread concerning a specific performance of a solitary piece of music?

Does this reflect the (still) growing popularity of Mahler?

On the old Message Boards there seemed to be more threads about Mahler than every other composer put together. As Mahler once said "My time will come" and it certainly has. Hardly a month goes by without a new recording of the Resurrection appearing. Unfortunately for my bank balance, I have an overwhelming urge to buy them all! It's the one work I couldn't live without.

[BudgieJane]

Hardly a month goes by without a new recording of the Resurrection appearing. Unfortunately for my bank balance, I have an overwhelming urge to buy them all! It's the one work I couldn't live without.

How many recordings of the third movement of Berio's Sinfonia do you have?