Prom 43: Tuesday 16th August at 7.00 p.m. (Copland, Bax, Bartok, Barber, Prokofiev)

[EnemyoftheStoat]

Prokofievians. Hmm. Try saying that after a few!

Shouldn't that be prokofievniki?

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes. jillfc, that was true at home too - the brass were quite muffled and muddled with the piano in the 1st movement until the sort of mini-cadenza for them before the piano's actual cadenza - then, finally they blazed. I felt Yuja Wang was a bit literal in her reading, technically secure of course... well, she has a lot of time to deepen.

Ah, Bax... I feel left out. First heard it on the Fredman Lyrita LP, bought the Handley set when it won the G. award, but I still couldn't find a way in. My loss - same thing always happened with Ferneyhough.

jillfc

It was nice to hear Edward Downes in you posting, he did a marvellous Prokofiev cycle with the BBCO at the RFH which included both versions of 4. This one of the best series I've ever attended.
Last night's programme was fascinating, although I must admit to some fatigue, as I had already been standing all day. I had not heard the Bax at a concert, only on CD and LP. I have never thought that recordings do justice to the sound of Bax's rhetorical orchestration, and for me the symphony was quite a revelation heard in the hall. It's a long time since I heard the RPO play so well, they really shouldn't be regarded as the poor relation that some think they are.
I suppose the Bartok was the highlight, the one complete masterpiece in the evening. Excellent playing from Yuja Wang. From my standing place some of the brass were a bit buried in the first movement - a Steinway does act as a bit of a barrier!

[Bryn]

Ah, Bax... I feel left out. First heard it on the Fredman Lyrita LP, bought the Handley set when it won the G. award, but I still couldn't find a way in. My loss - same thing always happened with Ferneyhough.

Two composers so often mentioned in the same breath.

The way Yuja Wang spoke of the Bartok in the clip used on Radio 3 just before her performance already cautioned me that she might yet have a way to go in achieving total empathy with its idiom. Technically a stotter of a performance, however.

[jayne lee wilson]

Ha! Very good, Bryn...

I always think of those two because the sound-world of each seems to evoke an imaginative world...
that I just can't enter. A title like "November Woods" or "Northern Ballads" is so inviting, I always think I'll enjoy it, and then...

I did get somewhere with Ferneyhough's "Terrain", once...

You'll have to submit my comment to pseuds' corner...

Two composers so often mentioned in the same breath.

The way Yuja Wang spoke of the Bartok in the clip used on Radio 3 just before her performance already cautioned me that she might yet have a way to go in achieving total empathy with its idiom. Technically a stotter of a performance, however.

[BBMmk2]

Ah, Jayne Lee Wilson, what a pity you can not get into the world of Bax's music! What treasures there lies within them! Some of the scores have imo, that ethereal quality about them!

[Ventilhorn]

You are claiming that "knowledge of the score" automatically confers greater understanding regarding the composer's intentions? Your argument only holds true in the cases of integral serial works, in which the score determines right down to the smallest detail how the work should be played. Often the most important things - subtle nuances, room acoustics, the personality of the performer(s) - (as Mahler knew and Stockhausen unsuccessfully tried to account for) - just aren't in the score because they can't be written in; but they're very much part of the music.

Panjandrum: Messages 49 and 50:

It seems to me that this thread is moving on to a discussion on Music Critics and what their qualifications should be. Perhaps it would be advisable to move this discussion onto its own thread and return the subject to Prom 43.

However, since we are here, I would like to offer a few comments.
Anyone who states their opinion of a performance on these boards can be regarded as a critic; or more accurately, to be submitting a critique of what they have experienced. Some have been for and others less favourable (…one man’s meat … &c….) and each one’s opinions must be respected.
The discussion here seems to have turned to what qualifications are required to be a professional critic.
How is it that the music critics of two respected journals can differ so widely in their write up of the same concert?

The question has been raised here “ . what is required of a critic in terms of previous preparation and pre-knowledge of a work before pronouncing a safe verdict” and my answer would be that the only requirement is objectivity After all, if our paid critic is hearing a work by an unknown composer for the first time, how can he be anything but objective, and that is the discipline that he should apply to all of his critiques, however loved or hated a work may be to him personally.

That is the difference between the paid critic and ourselves as listeners, but perhaps there would be less sparring and ill feeling on these message boards if we also were more objective and, while giving our opinions, attempted to be more willing to heed the views of others, without rancour or prejudice.

If my fellow message boarders would like to open a thread on the subject of critics on the Performance sub-forum, I would be only too pleased to contribute.

Some time ago, on the Radio 3 message boards, I penned a rather cynical appraisal of types of newspaper music critics.
If anyone is interested in reading it, start the thread – but let’s return this one to Prom 43.

VH

[Serial_Apologist]

Panjandrum: Messages 49 and 50:

It seems to me that this thread is moving on to a discussion on Music Critics and what their qualifications should be. Perhaps it would be advisable to move this discussion onto its own thread and return the subject to Prom 43.

However, since we are here, I would like to offer a few comments.
Anyone who states their opinion of a performance on these boards can be regarded as a critic; or more accurately, to be submitting a critique of what they have experienced. Some have been for and others less favourable (…one man’s meat … &c….) and each one’s opinions must be respected.
The discussion here seems to have turned to what qualifications are required to be a professional critic.
How is it that the music critics of two respected journals can differ so widely in their write up of the same concert?

The question has been raised here “ . what is required of a critic in terms of previous preparation and pre-knowledge of a work before pronouncing a safe verdict” and my answer would be that the only requirement is objectivity After all, if our paid critic is hearing a work by an unknown composer for the first time, how can he be anything but objective, and that is the discipline that he should apply to all of his critiques, however loved or hated a work may be to him personally.

That is the difference between the paid critic and ourselves as listeners, but perhaps there would be less sparring and ill feeling on these message boards if we also were more objective and, while giving our opinions, attempted to be more willing to heed the views of others, without rancour or prejudice.

If my fellow message boarders would like to open a thread on the subject of critics on the Performance sub-forum, I would be only too pleased to contribute.

Some time ago, on the Radio 3 message boards, I penned a rather cynical appraisal of types of newspaper music critics.
If anyone is interested in reading it, start the thread – but let’s return this one to Prom 43.

VH

You are quite right, ventilhorn. A tradition has built up among posters to these Prom threads that, apart from new works, they tend to be about specific concerts attended or heard on the radio, and views are expressed on performances and comparisons with other performances, rather than the about works themselves. Since I don't really feel myself to be a part of conversations of this kind, from now on I shall refrain from contributing to the Proms threads.

S-A

[cavatina]

Wow,cavatina!

Any links to sample reviews?

Well, it was a couple of years before everything started going up online... all my hard copies are either buried in my closet in NYC (or were lost thanks to my ex-husband's new wife throwing away massive amounts of my things. But that's another rant NOT for another day, heh). With all the Google bots infesting this place, I'm not sure I want to come all the way out of the closet about my identity, but we'll see.

One of the ways I got noticed as a freelancer was a 100% imaginary review I concocted of the premiere of "a recently-discovered lost work of Max Reger as performed by Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau and Julia Varady". Not only did I have to be creative and technically proficient enough to make up and describe a piece in the style of Reger, I had to be familiar enough with the interpretive style, techniques, and weak points of the two soloists to dream up how they might phrase and interpret it. I then went on to compare the "lost masterpiece" with Reger's other works, weave in biographical detail, on and on. Just like a real review, except it was pure fiction. Got me a lot of work, really.

If it isn't decomposing in a landfill somewhere, I might put it up when I get back...very funny if I do say so.

[cavatina]

Anyone who states their opinion of a performance on these boards can be regarded as a critic;

...aaand speaking of Max Reger: "Ich sitze in dem kleinsten Zimmer in meinem Hause. Ich habe Ihre Kritik von mir. Im nachsten Augenblick wird sie hinter mir sein."

How is it that the music critics of two respected journals can differ so widely in their write up of the same concert?

Because one of them is [INSERT PSEUDO-BLIND ITEM DESCRIBING ACTIONABLE LIBEL HERE]?

I also note that Cavatina only took up one small phrase of what I wrote in response to her insistence that the only critics whose opinions she considers worthy of consideration are those who read scores while at the same time listening to performances.

No, I said they're short-changing their audience. I never brought a score to a performance I was reviewing since I thought it was important to give the artists my full attention. I always did the prep work beforehand: my M.O. was to find out what's on the programme, listen to one or more classic performances on CD or LP with the score, and hit the library to do a little background research. The way I approached reviewing was a hell of a lot of work...as I said, grueling. Especially given that the vast majority of my reviews were of two-bit orchestras and minor-league recitalists, and hardly anyone cared enough to read my reviews apart from the musicians themselves.

I never claimed to have intimate knowledge of any composer's "true intentions"...I just thought I owed it to myself to take my job seriously, be as thorough as possible, and do the best I can. For me, reading the score was a part of that.

VH: I agree with the rest of your post, and hope this discussion moves to its own thread soon.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

There's a new thread on music critics on Performance, so please could we try to keep discussion as close as possible to Prom 43 over here?

[Bax-of-Delights]

There's a new thread on music critics on Performance, so please could we try to keep discussion as close as possible to Prom 43 over here?

Thanks. I was just getting slightly miffed about the diversion on here.

Considering the critical acclaim of the Bax - both in performance and content - it would be nice to think that we would see further performances of other symphonies at next year's festival. Do people think the sell-out was primarily due to
Bax
Bartok
Prokofiev
Copland + Barber
or a combination of the first three?
I can't believe for a moment that the insertion of the Copland and Barber attracted a typical CFM/Breakfast audience unaware of the length and complexity of the other pieces.

[prokkyshosty]

Was there a docu on BBC recently about the young generation of pianists? I met someone in the Arena last week who was attending her very first prom because she saw that documentary and become fascinated with the likes of Benjamin Grosvenor, Alice Sara Ott, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if Yuja Wang's participation was the most important aspect in terms of attendance. I suppose you could also say that it was a combination of everything -- all the Baxians came out of the woodwork, joined by the Breakfasties for the big tunes, and the Prokofievniki like me and before you know it, hey, sold out.

I admit I would never have expected this concert to sell out, so I'm rather surprised.

[Ferretfancy]

Bax-of-Delights

At all but one of the Proms I've attended so far, all the seats that I can see have been sold, so I assume that the entire season has been a virtual sell out. From this I assume that many customers have bought whatever seats they could get, regardless of the musical fare on offer. Promming is a different matter, because here the audience has a keen curiosity and possibly more interest in the unusual or rarely played repertoire. Certainly the day queues have been very long this year, and in the Arena I have met people who are new to the Proms, but have still come for the first time to hear works like the Bax or last night's Shostakovich Violin Concerto. I think this is a very encouraging sign for musical health. That said, I feel that many of the unjustly neglected works that are requested every year usually prove to be justly neglected if you hear them!

[salymap]

There's a new thread on music critics on Platform 3, so please could we try to keep discussion as close as possible to Prom 43 over here?

The new thread is actually on PERFORMANCE as EA saw I had just started one there and added his post to mine. Now open for business. All welcome, no fighting

[PJPJ]

A NY Times article on young pianists of today.... perhaps Yuja Wang was the main draw, Bax-of-Delights?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/14/arts/music/yuja-wang-and-kirill-gerstein-lead-a-new-piano-generation.html?_r=1