Prom 15: Tuesday 26th July at 7.30 p.m. (LPO Jurowsky)

[3rd Viennese School]

I’ve never heard Liszt Faust symphony before so this was a first for me. I did hear Tchaikovsky like dramatic moments in that huge first mvt.

The Bartok sounded good- the only concerto I have. Sounded a lot better here than on my cassette. That mvt 2 is a weird an inventive idea for a slow mvt. A nightmare nocturne/ mellow jazz evening/ Biffo the clown. Those piano rhythmic chords played moderately quietly and then a sudden cymbal crash! When the finale stomping tune for brass came on- that’s the Bartok tune that’s been in my head but couldn’t recall which work it’s from!
Note: Bartok always ends up doing the folk stomping tunes in the end, no matter what the work!

3VS

[Ariosto]

I saw/heard this concert on TV this evening.

I liked the Kodaly very much, and the Bartok.

The Liszt is, in my opinion, a rather over rated work, and I think second rate. He steals a lot of music from other, much better composers. And it's far, far too long.

Good orchestra, although some woodwind tuning problems, probably from the heat.

I think I would tire of that conductor pretty soon. He conducts for effect rather than for the music. And there are many times when he does not provide what the ensemble needs. I notice he always gives plenty of introductory beats - playing safe. Strange conducting technique. But I suppose the band ignore him quite a bit. I bet the ladies love him though ... (And maybe some of the men ...)

[Roehre]

The Liszt is, in my opinion, a rather over rated work, and I think second rate. He steals a lot of music from other, much better composers. And it's far, far too long.

May I ask which composers (and which pieces) you've got in mind from whom Liszt has stolen some music or ideas?

[Chris Newman]

May I ask which composers (and which pieces) you've got in mind from whom Liszt has stolen some music or ideas?

To misquote Ariosto: The Liszt is, in my opinion, a rather over rated work, and I think contains a lot of original but second rate music.

[Ariosto]

I would have thought it pretty obvious which composers he has nicked stuff from. You don't really want me to bore the pants off everyone with a 30,000 word thesis, do you?

[Ventilhorn]

I saw/heard this concert on TV this evening.

I liked the Kodaly very much, and the Bartok.

I thought you told us that you don't have a TV?

The Liszt is, in my opinion, a rather over rated work, and I think second rate. He steals a lot of music from other, much better composers. And it's far, far too long.

I don't believe that anyone would disagree with this one. The number of times it has been performed in the last hundred years speaks for itself. Too long, too repetitive and unutterably boring. Liszt should have kept the final movement and scrapped the rest; but if he "borrowed" from other composers, one could point out that Schubert, Beethoven and many others could also be accused of doing the same thing. There are only so many possible combinations of notes in the diatonic scale (which is possibly why our contemporary music composers have changed the rules to produce fresh sounds)

Good orchestra, although some woodwind tuning problems, probably from the heat.

I think the woodwind were outstandingly good throughout.

I think I would tire of that conductor pretty soon. He conducts for effect rather than for the music. And there are many times when he does not provide what the ensemble needs. I notice he always gives plenty of introductory beats - playing safe. Strange conducting technique. But I suppose the band ignore him quite a bit.

But you think all conductors are rubbish anyway. For myself, I would rather play for Jurowsky and his preparitory beats than Gergiev with his waggling fingers and no beat at all.

I bet the ladies love him though ... (And maybe some of the men ...)

You're at it again. No point at all in that comment. Best left out of this forum, which is about music.

You may have changed your name, but, in the words of my old band sergeant " ... you can't not make a leopard change 'is spots."

VH

[teamsaint]

I saw/heard this concert on TV this evening.

I liked the Kodaly very much, and the Bartok.

The Liszt is, in my opinion, a rather over rated work, and I think second rate. He steals a lot of music from other, much better composers. And it's far, far too long.

Good orchestra, although some woodwind tuning problems, probably from the heat.

I think I would tire of that conductor pretty soon. He conducts for effect rather than for the music. And there are many times when he does not provide what the ensemble needs. I notice he always gives plenty of introductory beats - playing safe. Strange conducting technique. But I suppose the band ignore him quite a bit. I bet the ladies love him though ... (And maybe some of the men ...)

Thought I noticed the woodwind tuning thing too.
still waiting to watch/listen to the whole thing, but good to see interesting programming like this.
If there were a lot of empty seats, its a shame they can't be sold cheaply as standbys....a trip up to the smoke with the price of a seat is a lot of money for some folks...and its nice to sit down sometimes !!

[Roehre]

I would have thought it pretty obvious which composers he has nicked stuff from. You don't really want me to bore the pants off everyone with a 30,000 word thesis, do you?

Ariosto, Given the fact that this work was written in 1857, it is not that obvious I'm afraid.

I like Chris Newman's "misquotation",

To misquote Ariosto: The Liszt is, in my opinion, a rather over rated work, and I think contains a lot of original but second rate music.

as there is a lot of truth in it, but Liszt is a lot more original than your original words imply.

[mercia]

so on the whole do we think Liszt is well represented (at the Proms) in this bicentenary? for example, we're only getting one of the thirteen symphonic poems and no choral works.

[verismissimo]

so on the whole do we think Liszt is well represented (at the Proms) in this bicentenary? for example, we're only getting one of the thirteen symphonic poems and no choral works.

mercia, I think anniversaries represent an opportunity to reassess and in the case of Liszt his whole bicentenary has been woefully under-represented both on R3 and on the South Bank and elsewhere.

On the subject of "stealing", Liszt did much to present other composers' work to the public in his own particular fashion, and was completely open about it. At the same time, like Handel and Bach, he recycled his own music continuously.

As for the Faust Symphony, I've never got on with the first movement at all. And I have to remind myself each time that, for me, it's best to start with the second.

[Ariosto]

I thought you told us that you don't have a TV?


I don't believe that anyone would disagree with this one. The number of times it has been performed in the last hundred years speaks for itself. Too long, too repetitive and unutterably boring. Liszt should have kept the final movement and scrapped the rest; but if he "borrowed" from other composers, one could point out that Schubert, Beethoven and many others could also be accused of doing the same thing. There are only so many possible combinations of notes in the diatonic scale (which is possibly why our contemporary music composers have changed the rules to produce fresh sounds)


I think the woodwind were outstandingly good throughout.

P.S. I do like some Liszt - some of the late piano works, for example the Petrach Sonnets - it's just that I don't go for the bombastic stuff or much of the orchestral music.



But you think all conductors are rubbish anyway. For myself, I would rather play for Jurowsky and his preparitory beats than Gergiev with his waggling fingers and no beat at all.



You're at it again. No point at all in that comment. Best left out of this forum, which is about music.

You may have changed your name, but, in the words of my old band sergeant " ... you can't not make a leopard change 'is spots."

VH

Hi Ventilhorn

I've been meaning to have words with you for a while, or at least since I re-joined.

Have you changed your user name since the old BBC boards? I also (from your comments) feel we may have come across each other at some point a long, long time ago?

Regarding the TV, yes I do use one now, (since June 2011) - along with a TV licence, but I'm already regretting it due to the lack of good programming.

But I did not say the woodwind were not very good, just that they were probably suffering from the heat of that hall. I too enjoyed their excellent playing.

I have to disagree with you, as I do not think ALL conductors are rubbish, only a high proportion! And I do like Gergiev a lot.

I'm afraid you are misquoting me quite a lot, but as I'm an easy going chap I won't hold it against you.

I will, I'm afraid, still make my witty comments, but just for those who have a sense of humour. (So please ignore my attempts at humour)

As for leopards - I try and avoid them - and try not to make catty remarks about others.

P.S. I do like some Liszt - some of the late piano works, for example the Petrach Sonnets (from Years of Pilgrimage) - it's just that I don't go for the bombastic stuff or much of the orchestral music.

[pilamenon]

I've listened to a couple of recordings of the Faust symphony recently, and would add my recommendation of the Beecham version (I'm enjoying TB's work more and more). It's also mercifully shorter than the version we heard this week. As well played as it was, it seemed like each movement was never going to end, with each motif so tortuously developed, and then that extended choral finale...

I enjoyed the Bartok very much, but a pity he chose that horribly bombastic Liszt piece as an encore.

The Dances of Galanta were the highlight - such poetry and rhythmic brilliance.

[Ariosto]

You're at it again. No point at all in that comment. Best left out of this forum, which is about music.

You may have changed your name, but, in the words of my old band sergeant " ... you can't not make a leopard change 'is spots."

VH

Hi Hornspieler, welcome back!! I knew we had crossed paths somewhere before!! Yes, we all change our name at some point, but I've advertised the fact that I was cellini, and given a reason for that. (See footnote/signature on all my posts)

Looking forward to crossing swords with you again, it was such innocent fun!! Love it, keep up the good work!!

[Roehre]

I would have thought it pretty obvious which composers he has nicked stuff from. You don't really want me to bore the pants off everyone with a 30,000 word thesis, do you?

It might show that you've got some in-depth knowledge of the music as well, in stead of only assessing performances and performers, don't you think?

[Ventilhorn]

Hi Hornspieler, welcome back!! I knew we had crossed paths somewhere before!! Yes, we all change our name at some point, but I've advertised the fact that I was cellini, and given a reason for that. (See footnote/signature on all my posts)

Looking forward to crossing swords with you again, it was such innocent fun!! Love it, keep up the good work!!

Different forum - different name.

When the greatly respected genialhorn (an acknowledged expert on period performance and instruments), changed his name to Waldhorn ("Hunting Horn") it seemed appropriate to sign myself in as Ventilhorn (Valved Horn)

As Big Jamie, you were a bit too aggresive, I thought. With your subsequent many changes of identity you seem to have modified your inputs.

Let us not cross swords or French Frank will send us both to the guillotine!

VH