Prom 14: Monday 25th July at 7.30 p.m. (Mahler 9)

[Ariosto]

Yes, it's new since you left .

Take no notice of it. If you start a message and it's auto-saved but for some reason you don't get round to posting it (you might have been called to supper and logged out, perhaps!), when you return and find your reply pane is empty, you should see a message on the left which says something like 'Restore auto-saved message'. Click on it and you get your unfinished post back. I have found it useful a couple of times if I've pressed the wrong button or got distracted.

Thanks f-f - I do think that it will be very useful, especially for me!!

[Ariosto]

I see Herrmannesque has been reading shock-jock amateur percussionist David Hurwitz. Best to go to the horse's mouth. It's pretty clear, in context, that Borodkin was referring principally to solo melodic lines, where Norrington also encourages, and gets, vibrato. Just listen to the solo passages played by Natalie Chee (violin) and Paul Pesthy (viola) in the performance broadcast on BBC4 tonight, for instance, (it get a repeat from 02:55 tomorrow morning).

I think I must take issue with you here Bryn, even though I do agree that the solos (vln/vla) had some vibrato, but it was extremely small, tense and neurotic. The tone of both players was apppaling in my opinion, and extremely dissapointing, as was the overall string sound. There was no meat in the sound, only processed cheese. (I did not see/hear the TV version of M9 - as I was at the Wigmore 'all listening to a wonderful pianist, Yevgeny Sudbin, playing a superb programme of Haydn, Liszt, Shotakovich, Rachmaninov and Medtner).

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I see Herrmannesque has been reading shock-jock amateur percussionist David Hurwitz.

Being an "amateur percussionist" does not diminish the quality and accuracy of DH's research. At least he doesn't make it up to justify the playing style he happens to prefer.

[Bryn]

His 'research' is highly selective,and often just plain wrong in interpretation, such as when he confounded vibrato with flutter tongue, or when just about any mention of expression in a score is treated as a reference to vibrato. "Vibrando" also gets carelessly interpreted as "vibrato", but why would Mahler, who was quite capable of writing "vibrato", use the term "vibrando" (vibrant) if all he wanted was a bit of finger wiggling? If presented as an undergrad dissertation, Hurwitz's screed would most likely get an E- if he was lucky. Anything higher would surely get questioned by an external examiner. The implied claim that RN makes up his own research is unworthy, and merits no further comment.

[Nachtigall]

Just for the record I have to agree with all those here who found Norrington's Mahler 9 profoundly unsatisfying, scratchy, thin and often mechanical. In fact I was unable to stick with the TV transmission beyond the second movement, so was spared the misjudgment of the encore. Norrington's performance practice is of a piece with his coloured shirts and braces. But of course I realise that everyone has cloth ears apart from Bryn.

[Norfolk Born]

The word that came to mind as I watched on BBC 4 was 'uninvolving' - not a word I normally associate with Mahler.
ADDED HISTORICAL FOOTNOTE: There has been the odd comment about the amount of music in some of this year's concerts. Back in the early 1970s I saw a (non-Prom)performance of the Mahler 9th preceded by a Beethoven Piano Concerto - played, if memory serves, by Nikita Magaloff.

[Herrmannesque]

I see Herrmannesque has been reading shock-jock amateur percussionist David Hurwitz. Best to go to the horse's mouth. It's pretty clear, in context, that Borodkin was referring principally to solo melodic lines, where Norrington also encourages, and gets, vibrato. Just listen to the solo passages played by Natalie Chee (violin) and Paul Pesthy (viola) in the performance broadcast on BBC4 tonight, for instance, (it get a repeat from 02:55 tomorrow morning).

Hurwitz has nothing to do with it. I'm afraid Bryn is, well ...., I won't use "unparliamentary" language, being economical with the "actualitee". I have the recording of the Mahler reminiscences and there is no context to suggest Borodkin was referring to solo lines at all. Bryn thinks he can get away with this as most people won't have had access to the boxed set in question (By the way "in context" is a phrase to look out for in any argument - so beloved is it for spin-doctors and propagandists alike).

I spite of what I said in my earlier message I must admit I did find the ending of the first movment rather moving. No doubt that was due to the superb playing by the principle flute and because of Natalie Chee's use of vibrato in her solo

[Mahlerei]

I must say I've tried to like Norrington's Mahler but I'm afraid this performance of the Ninth was thin gruel indeed. That said, a performance of the First at the Proms a few years back worked rather well.

[Bryn]

Hurwitz has nothing to do with it. I'm afraid Bryn is, well ...., I won't use "unparliamentary" language, being economical with the "actualitee". I have the recording of the Mahler reminiscences and there is no context to suggest Borodkin was referring to solo lines at all. Bryn thinks he can get away with this as most people won't have had access to the boxed set in question (By the way "in context" is a phrase to look out for in any argument - so beloved is it for spin-doctors and propagandists alike).

I spite of what I said in my earlier message I must admit I did find the ending of the first movment rather moving. No doubt that was due to the superb playing by the principle flute and because of Natalie Chee's use of vibrato in her solo

Spite does indeed appear to colour your contributions to this discussion. Borodkin comments "When you played a melodic tune, you would have to use a lot of vibrato and sing, as he called it." I take that to imply he was not dealing with the ubiquitous use of vibrato which is RN's bête noire.

As to the question of Viennese sound, Arnold Rosé, leader of the Vienna Phil for several decades, and Mahler's brother-in-law, was renowned for his dislike of other than the most delicate use of vibrato. He simply would not put up with the vibrato Joseph Joachim characterised as "circus music".

[Sapere Aude]

There is no evidence showing anyone: not Spohr, not Leopold Mozart, not Schoenberg, not Mahler, etc, etc disliked or liked all types of vibrato in every circumstance and for all phrasing in all music! In fact according to most of them the excess of almost everything can be "bad": from case to case of vibrato, open strings, harmonics, trills, etc AND in fact excess of non-vibrato too becasue none of them recomend complete no vibrato! Not even one of them! Complete non-vibrato is most likely not more authentic than an excessive and unvaried and uniformly applied vibrato. Furthermore, there is no evidence that the opinion of anyone, be it Leopold Mozart, Spohr, Rose etc. was ever the general habit, was the norm amongst players at that time everywhere. It's possible that if more than one of them spoke of excesses of any technical device, those excesses were happening! How much? We don't know. Maybe that was the norm amongst average players! Maybe let's say L. Mozart and others found it irritating that it was happening so much and tried to tone it down! We simply cannot know for sure! So to which one of them and what are we trying to be authentic to? We are not sure! At the end of the day beyond a point all we can do is speculate and have a guess. To claim anything else is naive and arrogant. Even today many performers say one thing and do another! Or start their career believing something and end it convinced of the contrary!

And by the way, again you are guessing too, Bryn, what Borodkin might have thought about vibrato of main or secondary melodic lines! He simply didn't go into detail.

For example, what might Mahler have thought about vibrato when the strings sustained a chord in fortissimo against all the brass in full force? What did he think of vibrato when the strings had a slow counter melody sull tasto under a singer? What did he think of it when the strings were doubling winds? What did he think of it when they were the only harmonic support in a passage? What did he think of it when all of them were in unison? What did he think of it when they were high on the G string? etc, etc Borodkin simply didn't specify! So again any conclusions from one concrete case to another are in the end based on guesswork and speculation, not absolute and undeniable evidence, as much as anyone can try to claim! You may be right! But you may not be! It's dangerous to assume what hasn't been said was said!

One could easily speculate, the same way you speculate, that if Borodkin thought there was a clear and distinct difference between what Mahler thought abut vibrato specifically in melodic versus non-melodic lines, and what was happening at the time of the interview (1964), he might have said instead: "Mahler wanted us to use more vibrato than conductors do today (post the supposed "vibrato divide" of the 1940s) but only on melodic lines! He hated us doing it elsewhere, as players so easily do it today!" But Borodkin didn't say that either!

So all sides should stop from stating that there is clear evidence where simply so far there is not!

[Tevot]

I thought this even handed review interesting:-

http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_prom_review.php?id=9405

Best Wishes,

Tevot

[Herrmannesque]

For example, what might Mahler have thought about vibrato when the strings sustained a chord in fortissimo against all the brass in full force? What did he think of vibrato when the strings had a slow counter melody sull tasto under a singer? What did he think of it when the strings were doubling winds? What did he think of it when they were the only harmonic support in a passage? What did he think of it when all of them were in unison? What did he think of it when they were high on the G string? etc, etc Borodkin simply didn't specify! So again any conclusions from one concrete case to another are in the end based on guesswork and speculation, not absolute and undeniable evidence

I agree with you absolutely, Sampere Aude. Borodkin's statement doesn't tell us precisely where and how Mahler expected vibrato to be applied. His comment doesn't clinch the argument definitively one way or the other. But then it doesn't have to if you have an open mind on the subject. It's a problem for dogmatists like Norrington. For instance, I'm not in favour of "continuous vibrato" either and neither was Mahler. Who ever has been in any case? I'm afraid this is just another "straw-man" argument put out by the HIPPsters.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Hermannesque, you are absolutely correct in your desire for more balanced view. I have been accused more than once of being "anti-HIPP", simply because I challenged some of the more dogmatic followers of this trend. I suppose the posting of this thread might have caused a few rotten tomatoes to be hurled in my direction:

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?2127-Light-hearted-HIPP&highlight=prefer+playing

and I do lay claim to the term "HIPPster"...

but I do like hearing music performed on period instruments (though I would not always choose this option). Indeed, I enjoyed a playing on a baroque oboe several months ago, and I am saving up for a baroque flute. Having said that, I have little time for the early fortepianos - these simply sound like an old and neglected worn-out upright that has been tuned reluctantly to please its owner.

[Herrmannesque]

I read the thread Eine Alpensinfonie. I notice how David Hurwitz seems to pop up alot in these discussions nowadays. He's a good polemecist but not an academic or a scholar. In that respect I prefer to hear Richard Taruskin on the subject of HIPP. I still have a tape recording of a documentary he contributed to on R3 about "authenticity" (Presented by Nick Kenyon a number of years ago) where he made some very trenchant remarks on the subject. Taruskin, of course is or was a viola da gamba player and a central figure in the HIPP movement but he subsequently turned against it precisely because it led to the kind of dogmatism you refer to.

I don't know how to share it on here but I guess I could always transcribe the relevant comments onto this or another thread.

[Bryn]

Hermannesque, there are many sites (Rapidshare, YouSendIt, Mediafire, etc.) where one can upload files of significant size without charge. Once a file is thus uploaded a URL is assigned to it and one can make that URL available by Private Message in response to specific requests by individual members here. Most such file-sharing sites offer both free and paid for options regarding downloads (the paid for options tend to be much faster).

I would certainly be interested to hear the Taruskin you mention. By all means PM me (i.e. use the Private Message system here) of rany further information on the process of creating and uploading a suitable audio file to, say, Rapidshare (to the 'Pro' option of which I happen to have a paid up subscription).