Prom 14: Monday 25th July at 7.30 p.m. (Mahler 9)

[johnb]

BBC 4's webpage for tonight's showing on Norrington's Prom reads:

'Roger Norrington's radical take on Mahler's epic masterpiece.'

Surely we can all live with that description?

Definitely not!

The only 'radical' element was the absence of vibrato.

[amateur51]

Definitely not!

The only 'radical' element was the absence of vibrato.

Ah me! Now I understand what Obama's going through at the mo'

[johnb]

Ah me! Now I understand what Obama's going through at the mo'

[Flosshilde]

Definitely not!

The only 'radical' element was the absence of vibrato.

Is that not sufficiently radical for the performance to be labelled 'radical'?

[Flosshilde]

I'm pleased however that there are some people who are convinced by such performances, and only hope that there are enough and they will attend and fill concert halls. Only time will tell I suppose.

I thought time had told - or has Mr Norrington been playing to empty halls all these years? Was there nobody (except Bryn) in the RAH on the 25th?

[Bryn]

Definitely not!

The only 'radical' element was the absence of vibrato.

And there was plenty of that in the violin and viola solos, as RN desired there be.

However, I think some of the phrasing, dynamics and variety of portamento, etc, might be thought 'radical' by some. I would agree, RN does indeed get to the root of the work.

What a pity they found it necessary to edit the pauses between the movements and RN's introduction to the Elgar. Still, that's television schedules for you.

[makropulos]

Your loss, makropulos. I found it only bettered for emotional power by their earlier performance of the work, recorded and issued on Hänssler Classic. I guess some folk just like the mush of ubiquitous vibrato and hidden woodwind harmonies. I don't like mushy peas, either.

I know, Bryn - despite sounding tetchy about this Mahler 9, I'm not out to knock RN. But his performances just don't grab me the way they do you and lots of others.

[Bryn]

I thought time had told - or has Mr Norrington been playing to empty halls all these years? Was there nobody (except Bryn) in the RAH on the 25th?

As may possibly be evident from tonight's television broadcasts, there were one of two others in attendance. Quite a few of the corporate boxes were thankfully empty.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Definitely not!

The only 'radical' element was the absence of vibrato.

Is that not sufficiently radical for the performance to be labelled 'radical'?

That's not radical. It's just a personal obsession of RN and a few (often imo gullible) admirers.

I watched as much of today's TV broadcast as I could tolerate, and noticed just how miserable and bored the members of the orchestra appeared to be.

[jayne lee wilson]

Very useful, johnb, - thanks. After reading this, I think I'll have to do likewise. I did hear it off vinyl years ago and was impressed then, despite some scrappiness in the rondo-burleske and elsewhere. (And if I can find a Japanese audiophile remaster, I'll buy that - didn't Opus Kura do it...?)

I wonder if it was those 4 and 5-note accompanying figures which run throughout the last movement (and are heard repeatedly in the central episode of the rondo) which made it feel too fast for me, uneasy in its forward motion? A quick taste online of the Walter just now suggests it was, for his are indeed more measured, and feel at one with the main melodic line. RN's stark separation of the long notes at the central climax also seemed to break up the emotional sense of the music... surely Mahler's most intensely purgatorial fire, a catharsis before death.

The timings for the Norrington Prom are:

.......Walter........Norrington
I......24:46 ........26:37
II.....15:31........13:59
III....11:15........13:10
IV.....18:10........19:52

(Apologies for the dots - it was the only way I could think of to line up the columns.)

But, the raw timings are only one element in whether a performance feels lively or deathly slow - so much depends on phrasing, pulse and how the music is moulded.

The comments about the 1938 Walter/VPO recording prompted me to listen to it for the first time (as it is available on Spotify). I was so impressed that I've also ordered the Dutton transfer from Amazon, for just under £5 including postage via a Marketplace vendor.

Compared to the Norrington Prom the Walter has a profoundly different feel. It is also a remarkable document. The concert was one of the last that the VPO gave before the Nazi Anschluss and the Mahler performance must had bad huge significance for the musicians (and audience).

[Herrmannesque]

I tried, I really tried tonight but failled to like Norrington's Mahler 9 (on BBC 4 tonight). That's 75 minutes of my life I'm never going to get back!

I'm not going to get involved in arguments over Norrington and vibrato. Certainly not with Bryn who, as I remember from the old Radio 3 message-boards, is a contrarion pure and simple (I don't think he even believes what he's saying - just as long as he provokes a reaction). I'd just direct message-boarders to the series of interviews (last available in the New York Philharmonic historic box set of the Mahler Symphonies) with orchestral musicians who played under Mahler. Herbert Borodkin states: "Mahler used a lot more vibrato than conductors do today. He insisted upon it ...... "

Worst of all I cannot believe Norrington played an encore after the 9th. That, and his "mugging" to the audience after the Landler demonstrated how little understanding he has of Mahler's message in this symphony. Not only that but it also shows what a egotist Norrignton is

[amateur51]

That's not radical. It's just a personal obsession of RN and a few (often imo gullible) admirers.

I watched as much of today's TV broadcast as I could tolerate, and noticed just how miserable and bored the members of the orchestra appeared to be.

Mind-reading now?

I admire your consistency EA - you knew in msg 3 that you weren't going to like it and you've kept going remorselessly!

[Flosshilde]

I watched as much of today's TV broadcast as I could tolerate, and noticed just how miserable and bored the members of the orchestra appeared to be.

Presumably that's why they indulged in this sort of behaviour after the performance -

bow waving/tapping, declining to stand to allow him to take the applause

[Bryn]

Mike Dutton's was the first CD transfer of the 1938 Walter I got. Since then I have tried both the Membran, the current EMI offering, and the Mark Obert-Thorn transfer on Naxos, which, overall, I prefer.

[Bryn]

I see Herrmannesque has been reading shock-jock amateur percussionist David Hurwitz. Best to go to the horse's mouth. It's pretty clear, in context, that Borodkin was referring principally to solo melodic lines, where Norrington also encourages, and gets, vibrato. Just listen to the solo passages played by Natalie Chee (violin) and Paul Pesthy (viola) in the performance broadcast on BBC4 tonight, for instance, (it get a repeat from 02:55 tomorrow morning).