Prom 14: Monday 25th July at 7.30 p.m. (Mahler 9)

[Flosshilde]

Originally Posted by David Underdown
The reception given by the orchestra to Norrington after the Mahler (bow waving/tapping, declining to stand to allow him to take the applause) certainly suggests to me that he had won the players around to his way of thinking.

Maybe they were happy to wish him on his way in the near future. No hard feelings, just a sense of relief. RN will do all right. He will find acceptance for his way of thinking elsewhere.

VH

How mean-spirited, VH.

[Flosshilde]

Maybe in the distant future string players will evolve who are able to play with a big sound, good intonation, AND without vibrato.

I didn't realise that players 'evolved' - I thought they studied.

[Ariosto]

Realisation ...

I didn't realise that players 'evolved' - I thought they studied.

A few do study, but some never get their brains into gear so they just vegitate or become conductors ... a few evolve into something better. Some even think of trying to get their vibrato to evolve ... and some just take part in HIP operations (usually quite painful).

[Flosshilde]

and some just take part in HIP operations (usually quite painful).

Painful in the short term, perhaps, but normally successful, giving the patient renewed vigour & agility.

[makropulos]

How mean-spirited, VH.

I thought VH was remarkably generous under the circumstances. He wishes Sir Roger well, after all. I struggle to do likewise after that performance.

[Bryn]

Your loss, makropulos. I found it only bettered for emotional power by their earlier performance of the work, recorded and issued on Hänssler Classic. I guess some folk just like the mush of ubiquitous vibrato and hidden woodwind harmonies. I don't like mushy peas, either.

[ahinton]

Your loss, makropulos. I found it only bettered for emotional power by their earlier performance of the work, recorded and issued on Hänssler Classic. I guess some folk just like the mush of ubiquitous vibrato and hidden woodwind harmonies. I don't like mushy peas, either.

It was the very shortage of emotional power in most of the performance that upset me the most about it. I cannot bear "mush", in this work especially, but I've not encountered it in others' performances of it. I can't bear mushy peas, gross insult to the real thing that these abominations are!

[Sapere Aude]

I think is great that Bryn and others enjoy this version, and great that others don't! What is not good is anyone implying that a version is in any way more "true" than others and that there is one and only "correct" way to perform a piece of music, be it Bach, Verdi or Mahler. That is naive, unimaginative, dangerous and leaves us all poorer in the end. And in fact in many cases the composers themselves weren't consistent and kept changing their minds when performing, speaking about, or revising their own music.

According to a player who played under him, Mahler stopped once a rehearsal and asked the horn I think if to play a passage louder. The player said something like: "but maestro you said yesterday it was too loud, it must be piano!" and Mahler replied, "Yes, but that was yesterday!", "a performance depends on the mood too! Today I want it louder"

[jayne lee wilson]

Very good point SA. The trouble with recordings, especially favourite or "3-star" or "recommended" recordings is that some listeners come to define the piece by them, using them as a touchstone for tempo, phrase etc. I made it clear in my earlier post that I thought the last movement was "misconceived" interpretatively, but I would always prefer a world where it can be done this way and other ways, to inspire thought and close listening. One can love, say, the sound of the VPO under Krips in Haydn, and still be open to Norrington's and others' approaches - and enjoy the differences!

[Ariosto]

Mahler 9 and choices

I think this boils down to our own preference with an interpretation, and we should not be upset by others not liking our versions and prefering their own choices.

It really means that I do not, with my own personal interpretive and stylistic choices, want to attend concerts or buy CD's of performances by Roger Norrington. I may listen occasionallly to broadcasts or parts of works broadcast conducted by the aforesaid person, for reason of later discussion on this forum, or just out of curiosity. I would not have normally listened to his Mahler Nine had there not been a discussion on this space first. I was prepared to give it a try but in the end I was not convinced and found no gain in hearing it, so will avoid such performances in future.

I'm pleased however that there are some people who are convinced by such performances, and only hope that there are enough and they will attend and fill concert halls. Only time will tell I suppose.

P.S.

Can anyone tell me what "auto saved" means? It fades in and out as I'm writing a post. Is this new?

[3rd Viennese School]

“Had you actually have been listening, you would have heard RN giving a fairly detailed explanation of his choice. Most appropriate to the occasion, I and those around me in the Arena, considered it too. Still, it's pretty clear that quite a few commenting here were not among those who were listening last night. “ Quote from Byrn.




Byrn. If you read my comments you would have realised that I did listen to it! I can’t be guessing the tempo problems! Only heard it indoors- I did want to go to it originally- see my message that you didn’t read!
I’ve noted some things but it didn’t stop me enjoying the work anyway! And I did hear his explanation for Elgar- but he could have chosen something else. Or had it played in a previous prom.

3VS

[french frank]

Can anyone tell me what "auto saved" means? It fades in and out as I'm writing a post. Is this new?

Yes, it's new since you left .

Take no notice of it. If you start a message and it's auto-saved but for some reason you don't get round to posting it (you might have been called to supper and logged out, perhaps!), when you return and find your reply pane is empty, you should see a message on the left which says something like 'Restore auto-saved message'. Click on it and you get your unfinished post back. I have found it useful a couple of times if I've pressed the wrong button or got distracted.

[jayne lee wilson]

Can anyone recall another performance of Mahler 9 which had an encore after it? I can't. If you were in the hall, Bryn, and it felt right to you and others, then I would defer to that. But the piece is such a great and all-embracing statement, whether or not you see it as a symphony of death, of struggle and acceptance, or in a slightly different light viewed from the perspective of no. 10, any encore would have seemed superfluous to me, listening at home. This is despite a vivid sense of the atmosphere and the occasion in the hall, and despite my problems with the last movement. Would you ever follow the playing of it off a disc with further listening? I, for one, could not - I think that would be true of most Mahler symphonies.

[johnb]

The finale was simply too fast - too fast to allow the natural articulation of the adagio phrases. I was quite alarmed at how quickly the main climax arrived (unearned!), but my surprise didn't seem to compel my fresh attention. The coda was, finally, beautiful and moving - and properly slow , or at least slower...

As for the encore - here I have to be a little dogmatic; no encore, no, never after a Mahler 9.

The suggestion that the tempi have to be (too) quick because of the ban on vibrato certainly seemed true of the finale, but then wasn't Walter about as quick in 1938?

The timings for the Norrington Prom are:

.......Walter........Norrington
I......24:46 ........26:37
II.....15:31........13:59
III....11:15........13:10
IV.....18:10........19:52

(Apologies for the dots - it was the only way I could think of to line up the columns.)

But, the raw timings are only one element in whether a performance feels lively or deathly slow - so much depends on phrasing, pulse and how the music is moulded.

The comments about the 1938 Walter/VPO recording prompted me to listen to it for the first time (as it is available on Spotify). I was so impressed that I've also ordered the Dutton transfer from Amazon, for just under £5 including postage via a Marketplace vendor.

Compared to the Norrington Prom the Walter has a profoundly different feel. It is also a remarkable document. The concert was one of the last that the VPO gave before the Nazi Anschluss and the Mahler performance must had bad huge significance for the musicians (and audience).

[amateur51]

BBC 4's webpage for tonight's showing on Norrington's Prom reads:

'Roger Norrington's radical take on Mahler's epic masterpiece.'

Surely we can all live with that description?