Prom 14: Monday 25th July at 7.30 p.m. (Mahler 9)

[Ventilhorn]

I've decided to stick my kneck out and make a few reasoned comments about Norrington's Mahler 9.

Having heard part of the first movement I failed and had to switch off.

I can understand why some people feel that this is the right way to perform Mahler, and so be it, and good luck.

However, for me, this performance simply failed because of the lack of legato, the thin and weak string sound, and the general overall unatractiveness of the sound. I was also dissapointed that RN felt he had to add extra dots on notes - in other words - breaking slurs that traditionally are there. The portamentos seemed subdued too, as if they were an embarrassment.

I also felt that this movement was stuck in limbo somewhere and was not going anywhere.

But for those who love RN - this must be a special Monday.

I was also a bit shocked that RN and the BBC can let such comments made by him, and endorsed by the announcer, to pass unchallenged. He is historically inacurate in his statements about vibrato.

The day that I listen to Norrington conducting Mahler is the day that they will whisk me off to that Maximum Security Twilight Home for the Mentally Bewilderd.

VH

[David Underdown]

I'm agnostic on the vibrato issue, but the performance just didn't grab me, possibly just not in the mood after the high octane Verdi the previous night. Though there was certainly some pretty poor intonation in places which didn't help (piccolo against high strings in particular). The reception given by the orchestra to Norrington after the Mahler (bow waving/tapping, declining to stand to allow him to take the applause) certainly suggests to me that he had won the players around to his way of thinking. The one thing that really annoyed me about the performance was Norrington's mugging to the audience. Totally unnecessary. It does seem in some respects that the vibrato issue has become a bit of a fetish, when there are other steps he could also have taken to achieve arguably a more contemporary sound (contemporary to Mahler that is) - so far as I could the brass were all playing on modern wide bore instruments, Bb and F trombones, double horns etc. Given how long Norrington has been with band, it seems slightly surprising that there doesn't seem to have been any attempt to get these players to use narrower bore instruments. Obviously this would require direct financial investment in new instruments, but I'd imagine the string players have had to invest a fair amount of their own time to get to grips with the style of playing (and brass instruments are at least order(s) of magnitude cheaper than string instruments)

[Ariosto]

Actually Norrington's 4th movement this evening took almost as long (20 minutes) as Walter's late recording (at 21 min.) and was longer than the 1938 version at 18 min. But paradoxically it felt to me faster than both (and more superficial), mainly because of unconvincing phrasing and a string sound which I thought had far less intensity, variety and substance than in both of Walter's versions. That seemed to me a problem tonight throughout the other movements too and more than once I struggled to hear important lines in the strings because they were almost covered by less important secondary lines or sometimes just harmonies in the winds and brass.

Interesting comment because I feel like that too. I was reading the score, and felt the most important line of continuity had been lost, and where was the most important line of the music? In fact, a lot of it made no sense at all. I've never had this problem before with this symphony when using the score. It was difficult to follow and my score reading normally is not too bad.

I would point out though that this must surely be one of the hardest if not the hardest work to play and conduct, and it seemed to me that it was made much harder by the lack of a sustained legato especially in the strings, and my ears were constantly being bombarded with appalling intonation and dodgy sounds and poor balance. If I had to rate it I would barely give it one out of ten.

But those that loved it please try and convince me that I'm wrong.

It will also be interesting to see where this orchestra goes once RN has left. Will they get an MD who wants to go back to more conventional music making, or retain the Norrington approach? And I would dearly love to speak to some of the players and try and find out what they really think, especially the strings.

But its good that RN has given us a platform to discuss the complexities of orchestral playing.

[ahinton]

I had promised to keep my mouth shut about the performance of The Ninth Symphony and I'll endeavour not to break that promise; I will therefore confine myself to noting that, having switched off within seconds of its close, I was unaware that ignominy was then heaped upon the insult added to injury by way of an encore; full marks only for consistency of approach, perhaps, since the very notion of any encore after this symphony is about as bizarre as parts of last night's performance of it...

[Tevot]

Re # 49. LOL. I must agree with you. The idea of an encore in this context seems somewhat crass. Re the performance - to me it sounded anaemic especially in the Adagio which is marked is it not "sehr langsam und noch zuruckhaltend " - very slow and held back - which to my ears Norrington was not. To me also the reading could perhaps be subtitled 4 movements in search of a purpose.

Another serious question - are the Stuttgarters a good band?

Best Wishes,

Tevot

[Curalach]

It will also be interesting to see where this orchestra goes once RN has left. Will they get an MD who wants to go back to more conventional music making, or retain the Norrington approach?

Hello Ariosto, you have been missed.

Stéphane Denève takes up the MD position in September, concurrent with his last year at the RSNO. I'm told that the Stuttgarters have been counting the days! They can expect more French music than is normally played by a German orchestra and much concentration on sound quality.
There is no doubt that Stéphane's tenure at the RSNO has been highly successful for both him and the orchestra.

[Ventilhorn]

The reception given by the orchestra to Norrington after the Mahler (bow waving/tapping, declining to stand to allow him to take the applause) certainly suggests to me that he had won the players around to his way of thinking.

Maybe they were happy to wish him on his way in the near future. No hard feelings, just a sense of relief. RN will do all right. He will find acceptance for his way of thinking elsewhere.

VH

[Ariosto]

Hello Ariosto, you have been missed.

Stéphane Denève takes up the MD position in September, concurrent with his last year at the RSNO. I'm told that the Stuttgarters have been counting the days! They can expect more French music than is normally played by a German orchestra and much concentration on sound quality.
There is no doubt that Stéphane's tenure at the RSNO has been highly successful for both him and the orchestra.

Thanks Curalach for your kind words. I do remember now that Deneve will take up the position. I do think that it must have been rather traumatic for the orchestra to have had RN for 13 years, but I daresay that many had left and/or retired, and new people would have been hired who would have been sympathetic to RN's approach. That leaves a doubt in my mind about the possible quality of the replacements, as judging by what I heard last night, the strings especially were extremely weak, with poor intonation and a thin sound.

It's one thing to play without vibrato, but another to do it convincingly. Maybe in the distant future string players will evolve who are able to play with a big sound, good intonation, AND without vibrato. At the present time these players are in very short supply in my opinion. You could almost count them on the fingers of one hand, although I know Bryn will disagree!!

[barber olly]

Actually Norrington's 4th movement this evening took almost as long (20 minutes) as Walter's late recording (at 21 min.) and was longer than the 1938 version at 18 min. But paradoxically it felt to me faster than both (and more superficial), mainly because of unconvincing phrasing and a string sound which I thought had far less intensity, variety and substance than in both of Walter's versions. That seemed to me a problem tonight throughout the other movements too and more than once I struggled to hear important lines in the strings because they were almost covered by less important secondary lines or sometimes just harmonies in the winds and brass.

Now listening on iplayer, the overall impression is of being played by an undernourished, undersized string section.

[3rd Viennese School]

I like Mahler Symphony no.9. On Radio 3, this symphony seems to get played more rarely than the others. Don’t know why this is.

Well, I enjoyed listening to no.9 last night- apart from the schizophrenic tempos employed- especially in the slow mvts. Especially in that last mvt! Especially that last climatic group-instead of slow (it is a slow mvt!) he was rushing it as if he had a Southeastern train to catch.

End of mvt 2- where we get the final rasps- played it so fast you couldn’t even make out the music.

First part of mvt 1- don’t remember it doing that! And at the end I’m sure that flute is supposed to line up with the chord.

Mvt 3 went well- didn’t seem anything wrong at all.

All this aside- still a good symphony. I would have gone there but I didn’t plan it in time.

But afterwards- why Elgar!!???

3VS

[Bryn]

But afterwards- why Elgar!!???

3VS

Had you actually have been listening, you would have heard RN giving a fairly detailed explanation of his choice. Most appropriate to the occasion, I and those around me in the Arena, considered it too. Still, it's pretty clear that quite a few commenting here were not among those who were listening last night.

[amateur51]

Had you actually have been listening, you would have heard RN giving a fairly detailed explanation of his choice. Most appropriate to the occasion, I and those around me in the Arena, considered it too. Still, it's pretty clear that quite a few commenting here were not among those who were listening last night.

bliss innit!

[Ariosto]

Roger's encore

Had you actually have been listening, you would have heard RN giving a fairly detailed explanation of his choice. Most appropriate to the occasion, I and those around me in the Arena, considered it too. Still, it's pretty clear that quite a few commenting here were not among those who were listening last night.

To be fair a lot of people, including me, did not expect that there would be an encore after Mahler 9. You can't really follow that symphony with anything - and especially Elgar. I switched off after two seconds of the applause for Mahler 9 starting.

[Bryn]

Well, it being a visiting orchestra, and RN's swansong with them as music director, it did seem pretty likely to me, though I was half expecting Blumine. The choice of Elgar's Elegy for Stings was far more apposite, however.

To hear the RN's rationale, and the Elgar, just go to 1:25:57 on the iPlayer offering and listen.

[makropulos]

I've now listened to this twice - in a vain effort to find any of the imagination and insights that others found in this performance. The playing was a fairly typical example of the Norrington Stuttgart style (a fine orchestra producing a sound so far below its best that the results should embarrass conductor and audience alike, let alone the poor players), an interpretation that left me completely unmoved, and a wholly crass encore - much as I love that piece of Elgar this was not the time or the place, let alone the programme.

Once again Norrington comes across to me as a mediocre musician with a historically dodgy gimmick and nothing much else to offer. And yet, others respond quite differently. So I assume it's something in me that just can't get this man's music making. Nothing new under the sun - I thought he was pretty poor at Kent Opera and haven't had a single reason to change that view. And yet, I have friends who count him among the most exciting and interesting musicians they've ever worked with. So the man is nothing if not provocative !