Prom 14: Monday 25th July at 7.30 p.m. (Mahler 9)

[barber olly]

And as so often you would be entirely wrong. Similarly regarding his Elgar 1, quite simply the finest performances (those at the Proms and on CD) that I have encountered of this very fine symphony (Elgar at his very best, for me).

As Jonny Mac would say you cannot be serious. His (Norrington's nou McEnroe's) Elgar is soulless and unpleasant. I liked some of his earlier work on EMI with the LCP eg late Mozart symphonies given lively performances but with both Elgar 1 and Mahler 9 Barbirolli reigns supreme! But I'll give tonights prom an airing on iplayer and see how RN gets on!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

As Jonny Mac would say you cannot be serious. His (Norrington's nou McEnroe's) Elgar is soulless and unpleasant. I liked some of his earlier work on EMI with the LCP eg late Mozart symphonies given lively performances but with both Elgar 1 and Mahler 9 Barbirolli reigns supreme! But I'll give tonights prom an airing on iplayer and see how RN gets on!

It sounds as though we are both "entirely wrong". Barbirolli was scoundrel who dared to look beyond the dots and numbers in his magnificent interpretations of Elgar & Mahler.

[HighlandDougie]

My other half, working in London, is going this evening and has just been sent an e-mail by me, giving a quick intro to Norrington in Mahler. I mentioned that it would have the, "boarders frothing at the mouth", and so it proves, having just read this thread. I'm no great fan of Norrington in this work (although I think his Bruckner 6 is as good as Klemperer) but will be listening to hear if the combination of the RAH and the huge proms audience softens his somewhat bracing approach.

[Ariosto]

Mahler 9

I've decided to stick my kneck out and make a few reasoned comments about Norrington's Mahler 9.

Having heard part of the first movement I failed and had to switch off.

I can understand why some people feel that this is the right way to perform Mahler, and so be it, and good luck.

However, for me, this performance simply failed because of the lack of legato, the thin and weak string sound, and the general overall unatractiveness of the sound. I was also dissapointed that RN felt he had to add extra dots on notes - in other words - breaking slurs that traditionally are there. The portamentos seemed subdued too, as if they were an embarrassment.

I also felt that this movement was stuck in limbo somewhere and was not going anywhere.

But for those who love RN - this must be a special Monday.

I was also a bit shocked that RN and the BBC can let such comments made by him, and endorsed by the announcer, to pass unchallenged. He is historically inacurate in his statements about vibrato.

I don't want to start a war, especially as my existence on these boards may well be short lived and probably only for at most will last for the Proms season.

Hope you are all well and alive and kicking ... !!!

(P.S. Sorry Bryn!!)

[Ariosto]

I've heard some more now, and the third movement sort of came off, but the last movement only worked for me in the bars where there was a lot of movement (quavers or semiquavers against the long notes). And the end sounded too tentative and shaky

Dare I mention the bad intonation? The pitching was really not good tonight.

[ahinton]

I've decided to stick my kneck out and make a few reasoned comments about Norrington's Mahler 9.

Having heard part of the first movement I failed and had to switch off.

I can understand why some people feel that this is the right way to perform Mahler, and so be it, and good luck.

However, for me, this performance simply failed because of the lack of legato, the thin and weak string sound, and the general overall unatractiveness of the sound. I was also dissapointed that RN felt he had to add extra dots on notes - in other words - breaking slurs that traditionally are there. The portamentos seemed subdued too, as if they were an embarrassment.

I also felt that this movement was stuck in limbo somewhere and was not going anywhere.

But for those who love RN - this must be a special Monday.

I was also a bit shocked that RN and the BBC can let such comments made by him, and endorsed by the announcer, to pass unchallenged. He is historically inacurate in his staements about vibrato.

I don't want to start a war, especially as my existence on these boards may well be short lived and probably only for at most will last for the Proms season.

Hope you are all well and alive and kicking ... !!!

(P.S. Sorry Bryn!!)

About The Ninth Symphony (is there any other?) tonight I have too many words but should, for everyone's benefit, confine them to a mere three.

Don't even ask...

[Petrushka]

Having roundly condemned the CD to the small stack of 'never to be played ever again' I thought I'd give this an open-minded listen. There was some good playing here, notably from the horns and trumpets and the two middle movements sort of worked, particularly the third which came off well at Sir RN's chosen tempo.

But oh those strings! Weak, feeble, bloodless, desiccated fill in your own adjective. The shortcomings were cruelly exposed in the Elgar Elegy for Strings we had as encore. I normally rush to any Prom Mahler 9 but glad I stayed at home.

Welcome back Ariosto/Cellini! Do stay with us!

[Ariosto]

I can understand why Roger Norrington and his followers have travelled down this road of non vibrato, as it is probably a reaction to the excesses we have had in the 80's - to the present time, and exhibited by such players as Perlman. Whilst I am an admirer in some ways of Perlmans ease of technique I have often been somewhat discouraged by his over use of vibrato and his sometimes irreverant way of interpreting some music. But I can still admire him at times.

But of course Mahler was well aware of vibrato and in fact wrote music that was in my opinion an ideal vehicle for a reasonable use of vibrato. The portamentos he wrote into the scores cry out as I hear it.

I heard a chamber group playing Purcell at lunchtime today on R3 and the intonation was appalling, as was the sound. I can't help thinking that some musicians are becoming extremists over this style of playing.

[Ariosto]

Having roundly condemned the CD to the small stack of 'never to be played ever again' I thought I'd give this an open-minded listen. There was some good playing here, notably from the horns and trumpets and the two middle movements sort of worked, particularly the third which came off well at Sir RN's chosen tempo.

But oh those strings! Weak, feeble, bloodless, desiccated fill in your own adjective. The shortcomings were cruelly exposed in the Elgar Elegy for Strings we had as encore. I normally rush to any Prom Mahler 9 but glad I stayed at home.

Welcome back Ariosto/Cellini! Do stay with us!

Thanks Petrushka

I missed the Elgar as I switched off a few seconds after the Mahler.

[Bryn]

As Jonny Mac would say you cannot be serious. His (Norrington's nou McEnroe's) Elgar is soulless and unpleasant. I liked some of his earlier work on EMI with the LCP eg late Mozart symphonies given lively performances but with both Elgar 1 and Mahler 9 Barbirolli reigns supreme! But I'll give tonights prom an airing on iplayer and see how RN gets on!

No, no, rubber brolly, you just don't get Elgar. It's a simple as that. Glorious John did a good Mahler 5, but his 9th was something of a disappointment, especially compared to what Norrington has now achieved. The portamenti in tonight's performance can hardly have eluded even the most jaundiced ears.

[Bryn]

Mahler was indeed well aware of vibrato, and when he wanted it he specifically asked for it, in the score. QED.

[Sapere Aude]

Mahler and his contemporaries sometimes asked for "ohne vibrato" without having asked previously for vibrato. Which implies vibrato was of course widely used even then or otherwise he wouldn't ask for a passage to be played "senza". Just like when he asks for no espressivo. If everything was played without expression there would be no need for "senza"!

One other common reason at the time for composers to ask specifically for vibrato on a passage was to force players to avoid the "pure tone" of open strings. There are many examples of that such as this from R. Strauss Elektra, written by the way pretty much at the same time as Mahler 9:

"alle Streicher sehr seelenvoll, mit sehr viel vibrato, daher keine leeren Saiten benutzen!" (All strings very soulfully, with very much vibrato, thus using no open strings!”)

And critics were writing by the way about the rich Vienna PO strings and their vibrato even before the famous Bruno Walter Mahler 9 recording which R. Norrington claims to take as a model!

Yes, vibrato was used a little less than we are used to but it WAS widely used even then in orchestras. In fact in early 1900s someone writes that orchestral players vibrate or don't vibrate as they feel like!" and conductors don't usually interfere. That's why probably some composers found it necessary to ask specifically for vibrato or senza for a particular passage to ensure there would be some sort of "collective approach". R. Norrington is an extremist who is trying to rewrite history when he claims there was no vibrato in orchestras at all!

[jayne lee wilson]

I tend to be generous to performers if possible... having admired Norrington's Stuttgart Beethoven cycle (no.9 especially!) and the recent Haydn London Symphonies (not many slow movements are slow, though...), and admiring his Bruckner 6, this was my first encounter with his Mahler, a work I listen to only rarely now after many recordings and live encounters. The first 3 movements came off very well on RN's own terms - well-judged tempi, great structural and textural clarity, with some lovely chamber-musical delicacy in the coda(s) of (1); achieving emotional in intensity in (1) and (3) by sheer force and articulation. The climax to (1) sent shock waves through my room, the landler seemed to me to fragment and dissipate at just the right pace; and the rondo burleske, was superbly angry at its close; But then...
The finale was simply too fast - too fast to allow the natural articulation of the adagio phrases. I was quite alarmed at how quickly the main climax arrived (unearned!), but my surprise didn't seem to compel my fresh attention. The coda was, finally, beautiful and moving - and properly slow , or at least slower...

As for the encore - here I have to be a little dogmatic; no encore, no, never after a Mahler 9.

The suggestion that the tempi have to be (too) quick because of the ban on vibrato certainly seemed true of the finale, but then wasn't Walter about as quick in 1938?

I ended up a little sad about the performance feeling that the first 3 movements, fascinating and freshly read, were let down by a misconceived finale.

[Sapere Aude]

Actually Norrington's 4th movement this evening took almost as long (20 minutes) as Walter's late recording (at 21 min.) and was longer than the 1938 version at 18 min. But paradoxically it felt to me faster than both (and more superficial), mainly because of unconvincing phrasing and a string sound which I thought had far less intensity, variety and substance than in both of Walter's versions. That seemed to me a problem tonight throughout the other movements too and more than once I struggled to hear important lines in the strings because they were almost covered by less important secondary lines or sometimes just harmonies in the winds and brass.

[Bryn]

... more than once I struggled to hear important lines in the strings because they were almost covered by less important secondary lines or sometimes just harmonies in the winds and brass.

One of the many benefits of the eschewing of anachronistic ubiquitous vibrato which was raised by the string principals at the Proms Plus Intro was the revealing of those very, to your ears, "less important secondary lines or sometimes just harmonies in the winds and brass". Why would anybody want them subsumed below a mush of uncalled for string vibrato? A great Mahler 9, for those willing to open their ears to it. Whoever had that mobile phone (or those mobile phones) left switched on during the performance should have been lynched after the Elgar. Another went off during the Proms Plus Intro, drawing a acid comment from Rachel Leach.