Prom 9: Thursday 21st July, 2011 at 7.30 p.m. (Sibelius, Bartók, Janácek)

[BudgieJane]

He suggested that there was only one way to play Bartok - the way the composer himself played it.

In that case why do people play Bartók's music instead of playing a recording of Bartók playing it himself? (Except for the 3rd piano concerto, that is, as he died before it was finished.) I beg to disagree with the maestro; most of the enjoyment of listening to music is hearing the way the performers interpret the composers' works. Even Schiff can't play the same piece the same way every time.

[David Underdown]

Intriguing interviews with 3 punters on the rail in the arena after that, though: any Message Boarders among the trio???

Yes.... (and I don't see anything particularly wrong with that usage of punters, it's frequently applied to members of the audience at concerts in which I'm singing)

[BudgieJane]

The world is full of complete punters, Ammy...

It looks like we are never going to agree on this.

Here's the disambiguation from Wikipedia:

The word punter may refer to:

• A British, Australian and Hiberno (Irish) English colloquial term for a paying guest or customer, especially
  • a patron of a public house
  • a patron of a brothel
  • a customer of a prostitute
  • a gambler, particularly an amateur betting on horse racing or a player in the game of Baccarat
  • a beginner skier or snowboarder, especially one with particularly bad style
  • a speculator in the stock market
• Someone who uses a punt (boat)
• Punter (football), a position in American or Canadian football
• The Punters, a Newfoundland traditional music group
• Punter (protocol), a file-transfer protocol
• Ricky Ponting, nicknamed Punter, an Australian cricketer
• Eddy Groves, an Australian businessman

As far as I am concerned, when the word "punter" refers to a customer, it is one of those in the "especially" list. If you use the word as a substitute for "customer" you are removing the other meanings from the English language (much as the people who use "disinterested" when they really mean "uninterested", or "celibate" when they mean "chaste", are doing). You don't agree; that's your problem.

[Nick Armstrong]

It looks like we are never going to agree on this.

Here's the disambiguation from Wikipedia:

The word punter may refer to:

• A British, Australian and Hiberno (Irish) English colloquial term for a paying guest or customer, especially
  • a patron of a public house
  • a patron of a brothel
  • a customer of a prostitute
  • a gambler, particularly an amateur betting on horse racing or a player in the game of Baccarat
  • a beginner skier or snowboarder, especially one with particularly bad style
  • a speculator in the stock market
• Someone who uses a punt (boat)
• Punter (football), a position in American or Canadian football
• The Punters, a Newfoundland traditional music group
• Punter (protocol), a file-transfer protocol
• Ricky Ponting, nicknamed Punter, an Australian cricketer
• Eddy Groves, an Australian businessman

As far as I am concerned, when the word "punter" refers to a customer, it is one of those in the "especially" list. If you use the word as a substitute for "customer" you are removing the other meanings from the English language (much as the people who use "disinterested" when they really mean "uninterested", or "celibate" when they mean "chaste", are doing). You don't agree; that's your problem.

See meaning 1 here: http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/punter

[amateur51]

You don't agree; that's your problem.

Blimey!

When did the rules change then?

As Vic Reeves was wont to say: 'Ya wouldn't let it lie!'

[Anna]

Well, when I was running a business it was a case of an eye catching window display to get the punters in through the door which was most important and I'd never heard of the expression with regard to brothels but, to change the subject, I wonder if I should take a punt on Sibelius No. 7?

I have very little Sibelius, just the tone poems and some violin/orch stuff which from memory is with Petri Sakari. So, and I know this is all a matter of taste, which recording would be the one to go for re No. 7?

[Nick Armstrong]

Well, when I was running a business it was a case of an eye catching window display to get the punters in through the door which was most important and I'd never heard of the expression with regard to brothels but, to change the subject, I wonder if I should take a punt on Sibelius No. 7?

I have very little Sibelius, just the tone poems and some violin/orch stuff which from memory is with Petri Sakari. So, and I know this is all a matter of taste, which recording would be the one to go for re No. 7?

I'd go for this every time: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Sym.../dp/B00002681Z

Lovely No 6 thrown in.

And if you like that, this is fascinating: the original version, and then my favourite performance of the final version, of No 5: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Sym...431984&sr=1-24

[Mahlerei]

Yes, Schiff's comments are a bit strange, but then I rarely seek out the performer's opinions on pieces played. If they've got anything useful/illuminating to say it should be there in the performance itself.

[Anna]

Thanks for recommendations Caliban, I now find that I indeed do have two of the symphonies, Nos. 4 & 5, Berlin Phil and Karajan! Must get database sorted ........

[Ferretfancy]

Mahlerei,
Re Schiff's comments on playing Bartok, I think he meant that his music has a little less leeway for different interpretations compared to some other composers. Bartok was very meticulous in preparing his works, and whenever possible worked closely with the dedicatees of his first performances. I have Szekely's premiere performance from Hilversum Radio of the 2nd Violin Concerto, which Bartok prepared closely with him . Unfortunately he had already left for America by the time of the performance, so was unable to be there. Szekely gives a performance which is every bit as idiomatic as those later performances that have had the advantage of more than a generations study. I assume that most performers today work within Bartok's careful requests in the score.

[Mahlerei]

Ferret

Ah, I see what you mean. Point taken.

bws

[Roehre]

I have Szekely's premiere performance from Hilversum Radio of the 2nd Violin Concerto, which Bartok prepared closely with him

FF, is that the recording with the Concertgebouworchestra/Mengelberg, March 23rd 1939?

[Ferretfancy]

Roehre

Yes, that's the one. I originally had it on a Hungaraton LP in their Bartok Edition, and it also appeared briefly on DG. You can also find it in a 2 CD set of Mengelberg in one of ythose Maestro bargain boxes
I understand that the performance was recorded off air on acetates by a friend of Bartok, but it sounds like an in situ recording to me. The sound is very acceptable for 1939

[Sapere Aude]

Interesting article about the 2 "Manchester" back to back proms:

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/blog/concerts-and-events/parallels-and-paradoxes-in-the-two-‘manchester’-proms