Prom 4: Sunday 17th July 2011 at 7.00 p.m. (Brian 'The Gothic')

[johnb]

Surely he's right, isn't he? I had always understood the transmitters could only cope with a certain dynamic range, which is much less than on a CD.

And as I said before, the engineers can't have had nearly as much rehearsal time in which to sort out the balance for the thing as they ideally would have needed.

I think this a little too simplistic.

The type of limiting and dynamic range compression that was used for Proms 1 and 4 seems to be something totally new for Radio 3 concerts, whether recorded or broadcast live. It appears to have happened at source, at the mixing desk. As I said before, it might be that the engineers decided that the only way to cope with Brian's Gothic was to use something like the dreaded Optimod that is used for dynamic range compression and limiting on all Radio 3 FM broadcasts and perhaps Prom No 1 was a trial run for the Gothic. We will see.

In any case, setting the limiting to ~-10dB seems inexplicable to me.

[BBMmk2]

I went to see the Ole Schmidt concert, quite a few years ago. Anyone else went?

[Donnie Essen]

I enjoyed it okay. Listening now to the Naxos CD, which I bought some time before it. I never quite got my head around this work beforehand, though just hearing the dynamic range for real in the hall helps some. Like others, I enjoyed the subtler parts more than the loud. Maybe I need to listen to the chorus parts more, 'cause some of it bored me a little. I'm thinking I might explore some of his other symphonies, if he goes sparer on the orchestration on 'em and maybe leaves the choirs out of it.

I was sat in the cheap seats and got something of a side view. Bought 'em on the day of opening, when they all sold out and that was the best I could get in time. But I saw just recently more seats available on the web site, but then they didn't get taken, 'cause I saw plenty of Grand Tier seats empty, even whole boxes with no-one there, and that was just what I could see from my limited viewing spot. I know those spots are like private property and they get released when the owners don't want 'em, but it seems a dumb-ass way of doing things.

[Ferretfancy]

I'm going back a bit, I know, but before the introduction of Optimod compression, there were limiters at the transmitters to guard against excessive level, and they could trip out if this occurred. Studio managers had to be very careful to ensure that music levels were kept within a range of 28DB. This meant that very careful dynamic steering had to take place. Very quiet music was a problem, and there was a stipulation that if low mod lasted for more than two minutes, the level must be raised. An amusing case was that of the pianissimo finale of Vaughan Williams's 6th.When that was performed a special instruction went all the way down the chain to the effect that level must not be raised until the music had ended.
The Proms presented a big challenge to manual control of dynamics. One approach was to use closer microphones for quiet passages, and fade over to a distant pair for the big climaxes, producing a horrible reverse zoom effect which I found very disturbing.
There is no fundamental reason why FM could not have a wider range, the problem has more to do with the limitations of the Post Office distribution network at the time when FM was introduced.
I was never a music mixer, my field was mainly in documentary and current affairs on television, but we had to work within the same dynamic limitations. The only time I used compression was on things like gunshots. Unfortunately Presentation Department did not feel themselves to be bound by the rules, which explains why trailers are always deafening in contrast to the programmes themselves, but then most people working in Presentation would really rather not have programmes at all!

[Petrushka]

I was in the hall in pretty much a similar seat position to Donnie Essen. The sound was awesome and when all the forces were going full tilt was overwhelming. I've heard some pretty loud Proms in my time (virtually sitting in the orchestra for a Gergiev DSCH 'Leningrad' was one) but this 'Gothic' takes the palm.

Is it a masterpiece? A flawed one certainly but, yes, I think it is. The ending, after all the tumult has died down is moving indeed. The piece needs the advocacy of someone like Brabbins and a good recording. This was my third 'Gothic' - I was at the Ole Schmidt and amateur performance in Stoke on Trent - and last night's was by far the best.

[baz11]

Gothic Symphony - a few things to consider

I feel a few posters here may have missed the point slightly.

The Gothic is representative of the "Gothic Age" which, as is often cited in programme notes about this symphony, was a period of experimentation, expansion of knowledge and spiritual endeavour. In this context, let's then consider The Gothic Symphony as an experiment: one which employs massive vocal/instrumental forces to express something musically. Does it succeed? Yes, as an aural and compositional experiment in employing a very large ensemble of sounds.

The point about the melee of vocal counterpoint in the Judex (which, incidentally, is my favourite movement) is that Brian simply uses the words as a means to an end; i.e. he only uses those words in order to give the choirs something to sing. It is an experiment; viciously chromatic and extremely difficult to sing. I like to think Brian knew what he was doing since he worked with choirs for most of his life before he wrote this symphony, and wrote a full opera (The Tigers) during the writing of The Gothic. The fact that the Judex movement only sets one line of text further enhances the notion that Brian wants the listener to - for want of a better word - 'ignore' the text and its translation and simply experience the thick textures. As a composer I find this passage fascinating and interesting. There is nothing like this that exists in another work (that I can think of, at least). Again, going back to the idea of experimentation and "expansion", it works on that level.

Musically, The Gothic's main problem is that it cannot and will not ever satisfy everyone who listens to it; it is very easy to criticise and simply label it a beast and a sprawling mess. Having said that, Brian's "ethos" was restlessness in music. His music changes mood a lot, and that's the point. If you sit there and expect it to do what you want it to do you won't come away feeling satisfied. If you just listen to it as what it is - in my view unique music, innovative orchestration, memorable sounds - then it is effective.

Overall, this performance was a LOT better than the Naxos recording. Intonation was far better (the 2 e flat cornets and 2 english horns for example often play in unison; they sounded like one person in exposed passages, such was their impeccable intonation). I was in the centre of the circle (about 5 rows from the front) and thought the sound was excellent, and could clearly see all the performers with the exception of the singers who were right at the top of the choir stalls.

Visually it was exciting, and how I had hoped in my mind when I listen to my recording. On looking at the score (which I am lucky enough to own!) it was very interesting how the bells part was split between bass tubular bells, bell plates (the four metal slabs at the back left of the percussion battery) and regular tubular bells. This is not stipulated in the score, Brian merely writing "Tubular Bells" in bass clef and later, "Chimes" in treble clef.

For the one poster asking where the gong was, it was near the bell plates! ;)

The extra cymbals players all doubling on ratchets/football rattles of disparate sizes was a great aural effect.
Yes, I believe it DOES need that many people playing. One ratchet at the end of the Judex/Te ergo (6th movement) won't have the power to be heard with everything going on. These passages are war-like and deliberately barbaric; listen to them like that and they do work. Each timpanist had 4 drums only because otherwise they would not be able to obtain all the notes Brian requests - he actually says only 3 drums are to be used for the off-stage players. Being a percussionist, on looking at the score, the parts are vastly easier to play with 4 drums apiece.

Another example is in movement 6 where the tambourine part was doubled. In fact in the score it just says "tambourine" (i.e. one player) but 2 players would give a better balance; plus it is such an effective use of the instrument at the particular point that two players is more visually exciting (particularly as they were not next to each other) and also sonically more balanced.

The whole work stemmed from a conversation between Granville Bantock and Henry Wood; Wood suggested writing a piece that revived forgotten and neglected extra members of orchestral families - contrabass clarinet, bass oboe, contrabass trombone, expanded percussion sections etc. Brian - a close friend of Bantock - achieved this by writing The Gothic. Ok, the contrabass clarient doesn't get a solo, but it's there to balance the double reed bass end (two contrabassoons) with a single reed sound which collectively gives the woodwind section a more balanced overall tessitura with the brass/string sections. Again, it works on that scale in incorporating these instruments.

I have listened to the piece many times (nearly always in its entirety) and I enjoy it. I find it an effective piece.

I think if people accept that Brian's music is NOT about logical development, clear choral writing a la Mahler 2/3/8, tight structures etc., then people can appreciate The Gothic for what it is; an experiment in sound. I thoroughly enjoyed the evening's performance; I honestly didn't find myself waning in concentration at all. I do think this symphony will always have its detractors who will cite its length and incomprehensible style, but I will close this by saying that at college I analysed this piece structurally and was able to reduce it to simply the idea of the number 3.
-Intervals of a third (major/minor in opposition)
- Frequent use of triadic harmonies
- Melodic lines often beginning with a third
- The symphony is in 2 parts each split into three movements, etc. I won't go on as that's not the point of my post.

There are motivic ideas that are re-used and developed, but Brian disguises them by altering their pitch and duration and "covering them" with other musical elements. This is simply what he "does" with his material. So, in reality it isn't a mess in my opinion.

Congrats to all those involved, particularly the thunder machine player - what a great gig for him! :D

[johnb]

By the way, the severe limiting etc that was used for Proms 1 and 4 wasn't present on tonight's broadcast.

[ardcarp]

I was gobsmacked by The Gothic, but most of all fascinated by its utter stylistic dis-unity. I have always been led to believe that HB was some sort of dinosaur, working away in a private reactionary bunker while the world of serialism and other sorts of -ism whizzed by. But hang on. The Gothic, if written now, would tick most of the boxes for a contemporary piece in the sense of espousing the philosophy of 'anything goes'. In an interesting discussion on R3 before the concert, a horn player, a violinist and the chorus-master were agreeing that HB wrote very un-idiomatically for all their 'instruments'. He was deliberately introducing and element of strain via extremes of range and technique. Shades of Beethoven?

[french frank]

Thanks for the expert rundown, baz11 (and welcome). I think there's certainly been a sense of wonder for most people and high appreciation for the performance. For those who were in the hall (not me, unfortunately) it will be an unforgettable experience which I'd guess won't recur for a good long time. It put the seal on another big opening weekend.

[Serial_Apologist]

I went to see the Ole Schmidt concert, quite a few years ago. Anyone else went?

I was listening to my tape of that 1980 concert at the RAH before this afternoon's repeat of yesterday's. Fine performance, pretty clear in sound quality, less ecstatikc reception, but at least the choirs didn't go out of tune during the "Judex" movement.

What changed in the interim?

S-A

[Bryn]

Surely he's right, isn't he? I had always understood the transmitters could only cope with a certain dynamic range, which is much less than on a CD.

And as I said before, the engineers can't have had nearly as much rehearsal time in which to sort out the balance for the thing as they ideally would have needed.

He would be right concerning FM,and to a lesser extent re. the mp2 streams of DAB, Freeview and Satellite. However, there is no excuse where the HD Sound stream via the iPlayer is concerned. Rupert Brun sorted it out towards the end of the Proms 320kbps aac-lc experiment last year. Blakeman is simply aping the Ghostbusters and their "it's technical". No! It's technical incompetence on the part of those responsible for feeding the appropriate audio signal to the HD Sound stream. If that responsibility falls to Blakeman, he should come on here to apologise.

[Tevot]

I find myself agreeing with Andrew Clements in his Guardian review:

"Brabbins and his hordes did a truly magnificent job, and those who were there are unlikely to forget the experience, but the Gothic Symphony is no spurned masterpiece."

But huge thanks to the BBC for giving us the opportunity to hear this work after so many years.

Best wishes.

Tevot.

[Bryn]

I went to see the Ole Schmidt concert, quite a few years ago. Anyone else went?

Indeed, and I preferred it, marginally, to the Boult in 1966, which I also attended. Both were eclipsed comprehensively by Sunday's performance, to my ears. What a crying shame that the engineers made such a mess of their responsibilities re. the HD Sound stream.

By the way, the DAB mp2 stream was limited at more like -5.0 dB, but it was still clearly processed though a limiting circuit.

Too much on my plate for the next 32 hours of so, but I will aim to post 'fingerprints' of DAB mp2, etc., on Wednesday.

[Alf-Prufrock]

Alf, In all fairness, only Proms 1 and 4 have been affected by the severe limiting, not Proms 2 and 3.

I have checked my recordings of Proms 2 and 3, and you are right. They are not badly affected by massive limiting. I apologize to you and the board for the over-zealousness of my earlier remarks.

So what must have gone wrong is as you say, Prom 1 was used as a test run for Prom 4. How they could still get it so wrong baffles me, though I do know that in the past BBC engineers were so mightily afraid of distortion and wide dynamic range that they turned the knobs nervously and often. I remember a performance of Mahler 2 from around 1970 where the symphony ended 10dB lower than when the final passage started. I recorded it on my dear old Ferrograph and the meters proved it!

The 'pumping' in Prom 3 does seem to prove unsubtle processing. Surely it can't be automatic - only pop stations do that sort of thing!

[Colonel Danby]

I have loved Havergal Brian's music for years, and have quite a few symphonies of his in my collection: but the amazing performanc of his 'Gothic' on Sunday from the Proms proves that his was a genius, however flawed.

Thankyou BBC for having the courage to put it on at the Royal Albert Hall!