Prom 4: Sunday 17th July 2011 at 7.00 p.m. (Brian 'The Gothic')

[Chris Newman]

Hi John,
If it is any help here are the programme notes for the concert.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2011/july-17/5/programme-notes

bws
Chris

[Alison]

I have met him a couple of times. He's quite friendly one-to-one but he's basically a formidable
writer, I guess.

He sees defects in Brians work, including the Gothic, and yet is a most persuasive advocate.

[johnb]

Chris,

Thanks for the link. I'll read the notes and listen again in the days ahead.

[RobertLeDiable]

I'm afraid I can't see why anybody would want to spend time getting to know this piece. The endless, aimlessly wandering counterpoint is certainly relieved from time to time by a striking gesture or interesting bit of orchestration. But Brian seems incapable of writing melody that is memorable, even though his idiom is basically tonal. His dissonances seem arbitrary. He doesn't seem to know how to build to a climax. Is it because he so rarely heard his music performed? The choirs sounded at sea quite frequently tonight, and you can't blame them. I suspect there won't be another prom performance for a very long time, if ever.

[Alison]

What about that early melody on solo violin ?

Quite beautiful. Quick to enter the mind and very slow to leave it !

[RobertLeDiable]

No, sorry. Can't remember it. But a few bars of decent melody in two hours isn't much!

[prokkyshosty]

I guess I'm the first from the hall to post. Methinks those who were there in person will have heard a different symphony to what was on the radio. As spectacle it was phenomenal. After Prom 4, my season pass is paid for. Proms 5 through 74 are pure gravy.

[DracoM]

Quite a lot of sound and fury etc etc, BUT very exciting purely in terms Brian's attitude to orchestration - some interesting and innovative and idiosyncratic patterns and orchestral partnerships.

BTW, I kept thinking how the heck are the orchestral players managing to keep their lips / fingers etc in working order during that piece, 'Physically' demanding, quite apart from its musical challenges.

[johnb]

prokkyshosty,

What you say is almost inevitably the case, especially for such a work like The Gothic with its vast forces. Even with the best audio engineering it is impossible to convey the sensation that people in the hall would have experienced. (And this broadcast was definitely not the best audio engineering.)

[RobertLeDiable]

I've never had problems listening to and enjoying a work like 'Gurrelieder' on the radio, though its huge forces will no doubt be hard for the engineers to capture. It's not the multiplicity of choral and orchestral forces and consequent difficulty of recording them that makes the Brian an unrewarding listen. It's Brian's inability to compose a cogent and compelling musical argument. Sorry.

[Ravensbourne]

Anyone at the RAH tonight please report back if there are any signs of cameras.

There were no signs of cameras. I can't see why anybody would want to watch it on televison.

[prokkyshosty]

RobertLeDiable, your ears and my ears do not necessarily disagree. My eyes, on the other hand... well, you kind of have to see that big red thunder machine rolling around like a raffle drum to truly catch the whole experience.

There was much made in the program notes about the symphony being a "Gothic cathedral in sound." Architectural metaphors for music are usually bad signs, but I'd say its not so much a Gothic cathedral as it is a tremendous Folly. It may well be the finest folly "that a Staffordshire man has ever created."

When I'm driving through the English countryside and I see a folly, I ALWAYS stop and look.

[LeMartinPecheur]

There were no signs of cameras. I can't see why anybody would want to watch it on televison.

If R3 got kicked out of its usual box as I think we were told, presumably there wouldn't have been much space for cameras and the rest of the TV crew?

[french frank]

I can't see why anybody would want to watch it on televison.

I can't see why anyone would want to watch anything on television, but then I'm in a minority too!

[Roslynmuse]

I haven't listened yet, but have read this thread with great interest. I must confess to being a Brian sceptic, but based on very few auditions of the symphonies and a great deal of prejudice! On Thursday I caught the 11th Symphony in the Proms Preview programme and was surprised to find that I responded quite favourably it. The initial impression of greyness - meandering harmony and lines - became steadily more focussed, the structure of the work itself was clear and satisfying, and there was a certain individuality to the language in toto, despite the influences/similarities to such diverse names as RVW, Walton and Tippett from the UK and, especially, Hindemith from abroad. I'm not sure that I would describe my reaction to the piece as one of pleasure, but I'm more inclined to try to catch this Prom than I was a week ago.