Trashing Sublimity- The Heptonstall-Derham problem

[doversoul1]

Which reminds me that The Hanover Band was founded over 30 years ago.

Professionals have their own jargon/usage which gradually spreads. I think for the BBC/R3, it's a deliberate case of hauling classical music off its perceived pedestal.

And there’s La Petite Band. But that (Re: R3) has been my definite suspicion for some time. (can you have a definite suspicion?)

[Bryn]

Hmm, I guess Sun Ra's use of "Arkestra" must have been an attempt to put his music on a perceived pedestal.

[french frank]

And there’s La Petite Band. But that (Re: R3) has been my definite suspicion for some time. (can you have a definite suspicion?)

And like The Hanover Band, La Petite Bande is a period instrument ensemble. I watched the Proms concert on the iPlayer last night and was surprised that the interval feature starred a pretty woman in sprayed-on jeans pirouetting round the monuments of Vienna. All right, it's BBC Two which is a mass audience channel. That explains the celebrity presentation. But I can't help feeling that even the television audience is being sold short by producers who fear to overtax the public's brain-power.

[cavatina]

The examples you gave seem slight to the point of insignificance. People who have a mind to perceive sublimity in music are going to do so whether the presenter is "accessible" or not. Is it really such a great crime to encourage others to shed their biases against classical music by being informal and enthusiastic? I think not.

But I can't help feeling that even the television audience is being sold short by producers who fear to overtax the public's brain-power.

If the mass audience switches off because nobody cared to challenge the prevailing stereotypes about classical music being for old people and elitists, nobody wins. You're probably right in many respects, but it's a tricky balance.

[Roslynmuse]

When (for example) Penny Gore or Louise Fryer introduces a concert, I am only aware of the information they are sharing, and not aware of them as personalities. For me, that is not the case with Katie Derham or Suzy Klein (for example). Others - Catherine Bott is a good example of this (again, speaking personally) - manage to balance the two extremes very well. Is it a coincidence that she is a superb performer too?

In the end, it all comes down to personal taste. I am never going to like Derham or Klein, but others may be equally irritated by Bott, or even the more anonymous style of Gore and Fryer. The question that we seem to be skirting around is, which style(s) is (are) more appropriate for R3? Also, should it be the same for BBC2?

BTW - whatever happened to Stephanie Hughes? She was the first presenter who came onto my radar as a 'personality' (albeit a generally well-informed one).

And - final question, and perhaps indelicate - who gets paid more per Proms appearance (OK, I know neither are paid strictly per performance, but I'm sure one could arrive at an approximate answer) - Katie D for presenting, or (say) the principal horn/ oboe/ whatever (in a BBC band [oops!], for the sake of argument) for playing?

[Serial_Apologist]

I know a few classical musicians who have adopted 'rock/jazz' terminology. They play 'in a band' and 'do gigs'. Orchestral percussionists are 'trap-rattlers' and when the soloist in a concertos does his/her thing, they are said to 'go off on one'.

Personally, I have never come across the terms "trap-rattlers" or "go off on one" used in jazz journalism Tin-rattlers for charity collectors, yes.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

....i can recall the odd cage rattling tho ....

[french frank]

The examples you gave seem slight to the point of insignificance. People who have a mind to perceive sublimity in music are going to do so whether the presenter is "accessible" or not. Is it really such a great crime to encourage others to shed their biases against classical music by being informal and enthusiastic? I think not.

I assume that's part of your reply to me? It begs an important question. In recent years (the past 10, I'd say, at most) two opinion polls revealed that more than half of those questioned thought the BBC was 'dumbing down'. This suggests that a greater proportion of the 'mass audience' than the BBC thinks is capable of coping with higher intellectual standards than are being served up. That was my point about 'selling short' the 'mass audience'. I wonder what the BBC has done to define and identify the audience which will only watch (i.e. not switch off) a concert interval programme on Brahms (the implication being that they have just been watching the concert itself) if it is presented as light entertainment?

[Not to mention the fact that the programme seemed at pains to reinforce the prejudices against Brahms by carefully presenting them in the first place!]

[Serial_Apologist]

....i can recall the odd cage rattling tho ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVAbMtxRLOQ

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

[Bryn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVAbMtxRLOQ

What a pity the clip of the same work from the fifth programme (The American Way) in Rattle's "Leaving Home" series is not available on Youtube.

[cavatina]

I wonder what the BBC has done to define and identify the audience which will only watch (i.e. not switch off) a concert interval programme on Brahms (the implication being that they have just been watching the concert itself) if it is presented as light entertainment?

I don't know, but I'd be quite surprised to hear they hadn't done any research at all. Perhaps you should bring it up the next time you're due in for a pep talk.

Not to mention the fact that the programme seemed at pains to reinforce the prejudices against Brahms by carefully presenting them in the first place!

True, I was quite taken aback by that in the pre-Prom presentation.

[french frank]

I don't know, but I'd be quite surprised to hear they hadn't done any research at all. Perhaps you should bring it up the next time you're due in for a pep talk.

No response to the comment that opinion polls indicated that more than half those questioned in opinion polls thought the BBC was 'dumbing down'? I'd need to look up the references but one poll gave the figure as 54%, the other 58%, if memory serves. But then, those were independent polls, not BBC polls which might show something quite different. 'Research shows' () that the BBC is always doing what people want, which fortunately corresponds with what they want to do for their own purposes .

(And may I say that that's about the last question that would get a sensible answer if asked - as you would know if you'd ever had to deal with the BBC! )

[cavatina]

No response to the comment that opinion polls indicated that more than half those questioned in opinion polls thought the BBC was 'dumbing down'? I'd need to look up the references but one poll gave the figure as 54%, the other 58%, if memory serves.

Er, not really, other than the question was about the BBC in general, not Radio 3. They have yet to do a classical music edition of "Snog, Marry, Avoid", so I'm not too worried. Although come to think of it, a certain well-placed, highly-esteemed music critic might want to look into that, seems right up his alley.

Good God, I sound like Frances_iom.

[french frank]

They have yet to do a classical music edition of "Snog, Marry, Avoid", so I'm not too worried

Well, one always has to wonder why you, a New Yorker, would need to be worried about what a British radio station does anyway . No one is suggesting that R3 is dumbing down to the level of BBC Three, or even BBC Two. But it has a different remit. It should state to what level it is prepared to 'dumb down'. And it should acknowledge that if it targets the Radio 2 audience it is excluding people who want something more informative and challenging.

Although come to think of it, a certain well-placed, highly-esteemed music critic might want to look into that, seems right up his alley.

I've no idea who that might be. Not, presumably, the journalist who agreed a meeting and then pulled out after I'd spent £100 on coming up to London to see him.

A contact on another paper explained to me afterwards how these things worked.