20-minute cut-off before Proms

[PhilipT]

It's that crucial 10 minutes which was the bone of contention giving rise to this thread.

Yes, but my point (in response to your claim " .. coordinate the entry of both Day Queue ticket purchasers and season ticket holders without the 20 minute cut-off") was to show that there has always been a cut-off. I have already argued in an earlier post that 10 minutes wasn't always long enough. Just off the top of my head, I wonder how many Arena Day people were admitted to last year's Jamie Cullum Prom after the 10-minute cut-off. I went to the first concert that evening, and I walked past a really long (and growing) Day queue on my way home, and I'm sure many other Season Ticket people than me also decided to give it a miss. In the extreme case (no Season Ticket holders at all, which I know was not the case that evening) they'd have to sell over 1 ticket a second and then get the tail of the queue into the Arena. See it now?

[Lee McLernon]

Just to mention, even with the 20 minute rule applied on Friday (I arrived at 1841 thanks to an idiot taxi driver who drove into some road works which he should have know about), the day queue exceeded the remaining capacity of the arena but it was after 1900 by the time they had finished admitting people. I had joined the day queue by the entrance to Beit Hall but only made it as far as "Little Albert" when capacity was reached.

[amac4165]

Nice post, Mr. T.

Another point nobody seems to be considering in all this is the fact that we sainted, holier-than-thou Elite Arena Season Prommers are only paying five-pounds-or-less per concert. Exactly how much privilege and special treatment do you feel entitled to, anyway? Reality check: our experience is subsidised by the license fee, and when you think of it, we're all on the equivalent of musical welfare. If we put ourselves in perspective in the overall scheme of things, it doesn't make sense to expect RAH to bend over backwards for us for any reason.

We have paid money to purchase a ticket at a price offered - it reasonable to expect to get what we paid for ! Our places are double sold in any case when we don't turn up - season tickets seem to be a very good way of getting one for the price of two.

Most of us are licence payers too and so subsidising ourselves in any case; the expensive seats are also subsidising us too ! Start the "accounting" and costing out services you are on very thin ice ! Masses of output of the BBC is cross subsidised - how many broadcasters would incur the costs of R3 ? for a such small share of audience. My guess would be that the proms are seen as an integral part of BBC public service remit and are inextricably bound up with R3.

The most annoying thing is quite clearly the changes (missing fountain etc) are clearly cost saving messages just as the bar prices are revenue generating! But nobody seems to want to admit this - the fountain loss does not gain very much as the platform is far bigger these days but it does take effort and cost to install/remove it. Anyone putting forward that opinion probably hasn't any figures to hand or hasn't spent much time in the arena !

The length of the season queue when the doors open should surely be proportional to the number of people presenting themselves after the main queue has gone in ! All that happened in the past was a steward on the season door radioed round the numbers to the day door as they came in. This takes time and people and therefore costs !

The big change is not really the 20 mins it is that you are sent round to the day queue - regardless - and not depending on whether the queue is likely to exceed capacity !

[vinteuil]

the changes (missing fountain etc) .... - the fountain loss .... !

I never understood what the point of the fountain was - can someone enlighten me?

If it has gorn - and there is therefore more space for pipul - then that's surely a Good Thing???

[cavatina]

I never understood what the point of the fountain was - can someone enlighten me?

The point of the fountain was to 1) provide seating for disabled prommers who can't stand for an entire concert, and 2) provide fun for people who like to float silly inflatable animals in it. People complaining now are doing so largely because they see it as an affront to "tradition" or because they prefer to sit down and don't like the view from the sides.

If it has gorn - and there is therefore more space for pipul - then that's surely a Good Thing???

You'd think. But they also put an enormous Proms logo on the floor--"the branding"--which many seem to find a gross affront to tradition and everything good and holy about the Proms and further proof that RW is the spawn of Satan, etc. Personally, I thought it was a little dodgy that now people can snap photos of themselves sitting on Henry Wood's face, but maybe that's just me.

[cavatina]

We have paid money to purchase a ticket at a price offered - it reasonable to expect to get what we paid for !

Yes, but why do so many seem to be demanding the kid-glove treatment? Anywhere else for five pounds, you'd be lucky to get "limited view" off in the middle of nowhere, a few hours before individual concerts. To be allowed to book everything in the whole season at once and permitted to stand on the front row? I'm getting MORE than what I'm paying for.

My guess would be that the proms are seen as an integral part of BBC public service remit and are inextricably bound up with R3.

Absolutely, but we shouldn't take what we're being given for granted. It's easy to lose sight of what a precious privilege it is to be here at all, much less for next to nothing.

The most annoying thing is quite clearly the changes (missing fountain etc) are clearly cost saving messages just as the bar prices are revenue generating!

Nobody changed the vendor at RAH just to stick the screws to Arena promenaders. If enough people don't like what Rhubarb is offering, they'll lose money and change it again next season.

But nobody seems to want to admit this - the fountain loss does not gain very much as the platform is far bigger these days but it does take effort and cost to install/remove it. Anyone putting forward that opinion probably hasn't any figures to hand or hasn't spent much time in the arena !

I'm sure the RAH house manager knows far more about this subject than any of us do. I specifically asked her if there were still enough seats for the disabled-- and as far as I'm concerned, that's the only legitimate issue we ought to be worried about.

[amac4165]

I never understood what the point of the fountain was - can someone enlighten me?

If it has gorn - and there is therefore more space for pipul - then that's surely a Good Thing???

Apparently according to one prommer of many years standing (no pun intended or achieved) it was installed at the behest of Dr George Cathcart - who actually financed the start up of the proms but is largely forgotten. He paid for instruments which the musicians could purchase on easy terms, insisted on lower pitch tuning and the fountain which "cooled and moistened" the air. The fact is without Cathcart there would be no proms !

I also thought it was useful as it broke the arena up a bit and on the nights like last tuesday made an empty arena look fuller ! It was removed as per my previous post because of costs. On expected busy nights - Verdi requiem/Mahler 2/last night/gothic etc it would have been removed anyway. Clearing space for no one to stand in doesn't actually achieve much !

I cant believe a simple ring of chairs would take much effort to move without a fountain ! and on the nights there are cameras they could put the chairs around the camera stand.

It would be quite fun to search out a concert likely to be poorly attended - and buy a small paddling pool - if everyone brought in a large bottle of water we could reinstate for a night !

[cavatina]

I cant believe a simple ring of chairs would take much effort to move without a fountain ! and on the nights there are cameras they could put the chairs around the camera stand.

I thought of that too, but then realised accidental jostling could be a problem.

It would be quite fun to search out a concert likely to be poorly attended - and buy a small paddling pool - if everyone brought in a large bottle of water we could reinstate for a night !

Well if you're going to do that, you might as well go all the way and fill it with pudding or trifle and hop in. I wonder how much it would cost to buy it one cup at a time from Rhubarb...

[amac4165]

Yes, but why do so many seem to be demanding the kid-glove treatment? Anywhere else for five pounds, you'd be lucky to get "limited view" off in the middle of nowhere, a few hours before individual concerts. To be allowed to book everything in the whole season at once and permitted to stand on the front row? I'm getting MORE than what I'm paying for.

Absolutely, but we shouldn't take what we're being given for granted. It's easy to lose sight of what a precious privilege it is to be here at all, much less for next to nothing.

Nobody changed the vendor at RAH just to stick the screws to Arena promenaders. If enough people don't like what Rhubarb is offering, they'll lose money and change it again next season.

I'm sure the RAH house manager knows far more about this subject than any of us do. I specifically asked her if there were still enough seats for the disabled-- and as far as I'm concerned, that's the only legitimate issue we ought to be worried about.

I have been a season ticket holder for a few years - never been on the front row - never will be on the front. All I was asking for was reasonable access to what i had paid for - the 20 min rule and the front row are mutually exclusive. Nobody who has suffered as part of the 20 min rule would get on the front row with 20mins to go !! not even at a Oliver Knussen Concert !

I never said they put prices to annoy promenaders - they put them up to raise money for the hall. Catering at RAH is a tied market - there is effectively no option but to use the hall bars or bring your own - they can charge (and do ) what they like. The contract with the caters will have an "exclusive supply" option (although pretty unenforceable especially at the proms) in the hall; hence the instances of people have food removed from them. Tied caterers normally turn over around the 5-10 year mark unless things go wrong ! Rhubarb no doubt came in as a result of a re tender. The hall effectively has a cut of the takings - the more they charge the more the hall gets - details of the amounts and how they get them are probably kept quiet. I happen to know a bit about catering contracts in general and the RAH in particular as a friend is a retired director of the hall. We have discussed toilets and bar prices at length !

You seem far too fixed on ticket prices - venues like RAH and theatres etc no longer look at tickets prices - it is what you can get the punter to spend in your establishment of which the ticket is but one charge !

Personally not particularly worried about the fountain - never said I was ! Just don't like a lot of lame b*******t about why it was being removed !

[amac4165]

I thought of that too, but then realised accidental jostling could be a problem.



Well if you're going to do that, you might as well go all the way and fill it with pudding or trifle and hop in. I wonder how much it would cost to buy it one cup at a time from Rhubarb...

I always wanted to bring a pair of wellingtons and stand in the fountain during a concert ! now i never will be able to do that.

[Lee McLernon]

Actually, the principal purposes of the fountain are (1) cooling the surrounding air (2) providing a breathing space in the middle of a crowded arena and (3) adding moisture to the air which aids the voices of singers. It was the idea of Dr. Cathcart who provided the funding for the original series of concerts (and is often forgotten as a founder of the Proms).

I'm not sure that removing the fountain has increased the capacity of the arena as this is also related to the number of exits (and that hasn't increased).

BTW there is another thread about the fountain...

[vinteuil]

it was installed at the behest of Dr George Cathcart - who actually financed the start up of the proms but is largely forgotten. He paid for instruments which the musicians could purchase on easy terms, insisted on lower pitch tuning and the fountain which "cooled and moistened" the air. The fact is without Cathcart there would be no proms !
!

Amac - many thanks for that - as an ENT man, Cathcart wd have known abt moistened air for singers...

https://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_features.php?id=5812

[vinteuil]

Actually, the principal purposes of the fountain are (1) cooling the surrounding air (2) providing a breathing space in the middle of a crowded arena and (3) adding moisture to the air which aids the voices of singers. It was the idea of Dr. Cathcart who provided the funding for the original series of concerts (and is often forgotten as a founder of the Proms).

I'm not sure that removing the fountain has increased the capacity of the arena as this is also related to the number of exits (and that hasn't increased).

BTW there is another thread about the fountain...

thanks for this - could you point me to the other thread?

[Lee McLernon]

thanks for this - could you point me to the other thread?

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?2627-Bad-news-for-fountain-dwellers

[Ferretfancy]

At all the Proms I've attended this year in the Arena, there has been a little more breathing space than I expected, even for events like the Gothic. In fact my most crowded concert so far was the late night Steve Reich. This may not be too noticeable if you are right in the front rows at the rail, but from my place back by where the fountain used to be it is quite noticeable. Removal of the fountain is a removal of a long tradition, but it has possibly provided fifty or so more standing spaces, so I meet it's loss with mixed feelings.
As to whether or not this means a camera platform more often, we'll have to do a count. Remember, cameras were often there even when the fountain was in use, so it probably doesn't make much difference. What does bug me is the use of handheld cameras in the orchestra. For the NYO Prom a man with a broad carrying strap and a cue sheet, looking rather like an ice cream seller in movies of old, crept around the percussion department throughout the evening. If I had been a performer I would have wanted to knock him down.