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  • Dave2002
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 18009

    #16
    Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
    Remember, the amps and speakers can only be as good as their source (CD, tuner etc.), so if you upgrade them first you may find the CD Player isn't quite up to it. (The purist view would always be to upgrade sources first, because that's where the music comes from!

    A dealer can sort all this out if they're good enough, and if they know what classical music needs...

    **Personal Tip? If you want to keep your player, DEFINITELY add a DAC, perhaps the Cambridge DACMAGIC+, for around £350. Digital replay/processing has seen huge improvements in the last 5 years or so, under R&D competitive pressure from computer sources... they just go on getting better and cheaper!
    I'm not sure that I agree with your purist view at this level. Speakers can make an enormous difference, and according to your purist view spending money on sources and upstream kit could all be wasted if the speakers don't deliver.

    In the past some people said that loudspeakers made much more difference to the overall sound quality, though in the last few decades loudspeaker design has generally improved, and some good ones can be obtained cheaply. Loudspeakers may also need "tuning" to the music - in the sense that if the requirement is only to play classical music some speakers may be very good, and even then different speakers may be better at orchestral, instrumental or vocal music. If one's tastes also extend to other forms of entertainment, or others in one's abode listen too, then there might be a need for other characteristics. Those Monitor Audios I mentioned earlier might not be much good for rock music - though that wouldn't bother me. It might for some others with more "general" requirements.

    You should test out any speakers on a range of music which you think you might want to listen to.

    Part of the problem here is that the budget isn't big enough to be able to really optimise, though the good thing is that limits the "damage" if things don't work out.

    Regarding dealers, some are helpful, some are good, and some are ... Don't let a dealer tell you what is good and what is not. If you don't like something then there's probably a reason, and similarly if you do.

    Discuss your preferences with the dealer, but if you think something sounds in a particular way, then don't let him/her persuade you otherwise.

    If you hear some kit you like in a demo, do ask if you can try it at home - things can sound different there, and also of course, stuff may look overpowering at home which it perhaps won't in a shop.

    One other tip, but it doesn't work too often - is to watch when other people get a demo, if you can. Firstly, you may find that the sound that you hear is good, but then watch what the salesman/dealer puts on when the other customers have gone away. Doesn't normally work though, as most have dreadful taste in music - or just don't care, but I did watch one salesperson who consistently switched back to one CD player (I think it was an Arcam) after others had left, and in that system I could hear individual instruments in music which I liked, which was not possible with the others. The other interesting thing about that episode was that some of the customers brought along a CD of the New World symphony, which turned out to be a real cheappie CD, but it sounded brilliant on the kit it was played on. So even some very cheap CDs can sound very good on some equipment - and not, on some other.

    Comment

    • jayne lee wilson
      Banned
      • Jul 2011
      • 10711

      #17
      OK, take a more practical, analytical view... (assuming you can find a helpful dealer...)

      Petrushka has a good but slightly dated budget CD Player - adding a new (carefully-chosen!) DAC for well under £500 is BOUND to improve the sound.
      His amp is very low-powered (30 watt integrated) - so upgrade to a 80/100 watt one with good dynamic ability; again, obvious upgrade. At which point...

      His speakers have a very pleasingly rugged look, and may be a lot better than the 30w amp has allowed them to be (I had the later Wharfedale 505.2 in 1991-8, and they could do amazing things on the end of a big amp!). So sit back at leisure and see how things go with the Laser 80s before buying anything more..
      So - say this system works; OK, just enjoy the music again, forget about hifi for a bit. If Pet eventually feels he still needs new speakers, he's in a MUCH better position, with a cleaner, more detailed source and more powerful amplifier, to choose them well...

      Pet - take your time over this, maybe saving more into the budget as you go...

      (Thropple-thrush! HiFiNews have a monthly review called "budget esoterica" which included those Q Acoustics 20s you mention recently and this month have the Cambridge Audio Aero 2s (£350...) very good on budget DACs too.)
      Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 24-02-14, 19:30.

      Comment

      • MrGongGong
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 18357

        #18
        The only thing that actually makes a noise is the speakers
        A crap MP3 player played through the Nautilus top end ones or ATC's can sound wonderful
        If I make a recording of Alfred Brendel playing in the Wigmore hall on a Sound Devices 722 with a matched pair of hand made Schoeps microphones and then play it back through crap speakers it will sound crap.

        actually,on second thoughts, what you need is this
        Leading manufacturer and retailer of Hi-Fi mains cables, mains conditioning products and Kimber Kable interconnects and speaker cable. Est 1986.


        NO DON'T it's a pile of wooooooo

        Comment

        • muzzer
          Full Member
          • Nov 2013
          • 1190

          #19
          Agree entirely about speakers - and importance if poss of trying them out at home, as in my experience the listening rooms at dealers are dead and so you get a completely false impression. I have bare floorboards at home on suspended joists and am always struck by how any component sounds in an audition room. Horses for courses, obviously.

          Comment

          • Petrushka
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 12234

            #20
            Many thanks to all for a most informative and entertaining thread!

            I really would like those Quad active speakers mentioned by BeefOven! Mind, I think that JLW's analysis in message 17 gets to the heart of the matter in pinpointing my current amp as the weakest link in the chain. I've had the Wharfedales for quite some time and as technology has moved on was considering replacing them but having noted JLW's view that an 80/100 watt amp should make a big difference I'm inclined, coupled with her advice to take time, to go down this route. Adding more into the budget as I go is sound (no pun intended) advice. Can someone come up with some recommendations for a decent amp please?

            One silly question: do modern amplifiers still take the speaker cables in those clips (technical name unknown)? The Wharfedales do have those clips so extra advice needed please!
            Last edited by Petrushka; 24-02-14, 22:17.
            "The sound is the handwriting of the conductor" - Bernard Haitink

            Comment

            • Eine Alpensinfonie
              Host
              • Nov 2010
              • 20570

              #21
              Taking Jayne's valid point that the sound can only be as good as its source, i recall pursuing this in the early 1970s, when ai has an SME arm and a Shure V15 cartridge, plus every imaginable record cleaning device. After that, things went downhill a little, with a Goodmans amplifier and Wharfedale Super Linton speakers. I did upgrade the amp and speakers later, but never to the standard of the record deck. I had ignored all advice to put most of my money into the speakers, because I was putting record wear before sound reproduction. With CDs, that isn't an issue.

              Comment

              • Petrushka
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 12234

                #22
                Any comments or experience with the Cambridge Audio Azur 651A anybody?

                Shop TV, Hi-Fi, home cinema and more at Richer Sounds. We offer expert advice and lowest prices guaranteed. Visit us in store or shop online now.
                "The sound is the handwriting of the conductor" - Bernard Haitink

                Comment

                • jayne lee wilson
                  Banned
                  • Jul 2011
                  • 10711

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Petrushka View Post
                  Many thanks to all for a most informative and entertaining thread!

                  I really would like those Quad active speakers mentioned by BeefOven! Mind, I think that JLW's analysis in message 17 gets to the heart of the matter in pinpointing my current amp as the weakest link in the chain. I've had the Wharfedales for quite some time and as technology has moved on was considering replacing them but having noted JLW's view that an 80/100 watt amp should make a big difference I'm inclined, coupled with her advice to take time, to go down this route. Adding more into the budget as I go is sound (no pun intended) advice. Can someone come up with some recommendations for a decent amp please?

                  One silly question: do modern amplifiers still take the speaker cables in those clips (technical name unknown)? The Wharfedales do have those clips so extra advice needed please!
                  Most amps will use banana plugs/sockets now (or sometimes spades), they are a firmer connection and better protected from oxidising than bunched wire, but you can still connect the wire to spring-clips at the speaker end to try things out - they don't have to match...

                  The Cambridge Azur range is pretty good allround and the amps/CD players review OK (their Universal Players (doing CD, SACD, DVD etc) are excellent value), but the DacMagic models (I lived with the 2009 one for 4 years) are a bit special... very, very good value.

                  Comment

                  • Beef Oven!
                    Ex-member
                    • Sep 2013
                    • 18147

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Petrushka View Post
                    Many thanks to all for a most informative and entertaining thread!

                    I really would like those Quad active speakers mentioned by BeefOven! Mind, I think that JLW's analysis in message 17 gets to the heart of the matter in pinpointing my current amp as the weakest link in the chain. I've had the Wharfedales for quite some time and as technology has moved on was considering replacing them but having noted JLW's view that an 80/100 watt amp should make a big difference I'm inclined, coupled with her advice to take time, to go down this route. Adding more into the budget as I go is sound (no pun intended) advice. Can someone come up with some recommendations for a decent amp please?

                    One silly question: do modern amplifiers still take the speaker cables in those clips (technical name unknown)? The Wharfedales do have those clips so extra advice needed please!
                    Obviously, with the Quad, you won't need a new amp. And any extra funds you add can go towards replacing your worthy, but ageing Technics CD player.

                    Btw, I would say that MrGG gives excellent advice in his post #18.

                    Comment

                    • Dave2002
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 18009

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Petrushka View Post
                      Any comments or experience with the Cambridge Audio Azur 651A anybody?

                      http://www.richersounds.com/product/.../camb-651a-blk
                      I think those Azur amps are quite good. A friend of mine has one of the Cambridge Audio amps and it sounds good - though I suspect it is limited by the speakers!!!! Note Mr GGs point earlier. This is not the same friend who has the Monitor Audios - which I still recommend highly.

                      Also, I'm not quite so enamoured of the DACMagic as JLW - though perhaps because I really couldn't tell much difference between that and my CD player, so returned it to the store. Some CD players really do have good DACs built in, so it isn't always the case that a DAC will make an improvement. I agree that the cheapest CDPs don't have very good DACs, or at least they don't sound good, but get above base level and quite a number have rather decent DACs, so improvements with external DACs may be marginal or non existent.

                      There aren't too many DACs which won't push the budget out above the specification for this thread (given the other bits and pieces suggested), but the new version of the Audioquest Dragonfly is reported to be very good - and at least one of the posters round here has one and said it's good. However, that is USB in, so I don't think it'll work with an optical input - such as from a CD, DVD or Blu-Ray player. It would need sources hosted on a computer, such as CD rips or downloads. It really only has a headphone output - 3.5mm socket, but that needn't present too many problems.

                      I have an earlier DAC model Beresford Caiman, and have been happy with it, though some say the new Bushmaster is better. See http://www.beresford.me/products/TC-7533.html - though I don't know what the price is at present. It was originally intended to be fairly affordable, but I think the price may have crept up. Beresford products seem very good at their price point - I'm not claiming they're the best available.
                      One user "deserted" in favour of Schiit products from the USA - but they are more expensive once they are imported - http://schiit.com/products/bifrost

                      Some people suggest that buying second hand is a very good option. I have also done this, though one disaster is a very good amp (Marantz - I'll have to check the model - it's the one with Class A and AB switching, and it's huge) which came from a house with smokers. Pity - otherwise it's really nice, sounds smooth and has lots of power. It's never going to be used in my house because of the smokey smell. I'm going to have to sell it.

                      If power isn't an issue (and it might not be, depends on the listener, and also the other kit attached) then some so-called Class T amps sound surprisingly good. The Bantam Gold amp from Temple Audio is good, and there are some really cheap Class T amps - such as one called the Amptastic which can be obtained for around £60. Just don't expect them to blast the neighbourhood. There are also some really cheap Class T amps (£20-£30) - which come in from China. Don't expect them to be good, though some might be! There are also some more powerful ones, again from China - costing more than £100 - maybe nearer £200, but there's a big risk in buying. However, I did hear of one person who bought such an amp, and it turned out to be excellent.

                      The nicest amp I heard in recent years was probably a Musical Fidelity, but it cost well over £1k (probably minimum £1500), and unfortunately wasn't driving the best speakers.

                      Buying second hand can save a lot of money and get a much better sounding systems, and I note that even JLW has done this.

                      I've also mentioned the Art of Sound forum before - but I know that some people here had problems with that site, and may have picked up malware. Maybe the problems were temporary - hopefully so - some of the people who post there are very helpful. http://theartofsound.net/forum/ There's also another site - Hi-Fi Wigwam - http://www.hifiwigwam.com/

                      In the event of anyone taking a trip to the AoS site, there may be people there who will have kit which you can either buy cheaply, or even just simply try out. Some of the guys there are really friendly.
                      Last edited by Dave2002; 26-02-14, 19:06.

                      Comment

                      • Dave2002
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 18009

                        #26
                        Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                        actually,on second thoughts, what you need is this
                        Leading manufacturer and retailer of Hi-Fi mains cables, mains conditioning products and Kimber Kable interconnects and speaker cable. Est 1986.


                        NO DON'T it's a pile of wooooooo


                        What do you mean it's £1,134?

                        Comment

                        • MrGongGong
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 18357

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post


                          What do you mean it's £1,134?
                          I use one on my kettle
                          but pinch it if I have to do some high quality printing as my printer also uses an IEC mains lead

                          Comment

                          • Eine Alpensinfonie
                            Host
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 20570

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post


                            What do you mean it's £1,134?
                            People do pay these silly prices and imagine they can hear a difference.

                            Comment

                            • johnb
                              Full Member
                              • Mar 2007
                              • 2903

                              #29
                              It must be good as it uses "mains voltage optimised copper" !

                              Comment

                              • teamsaint
                                Full Member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 25195

                                #30
                                Originally posted by johnb View Post
                                It must be good as it uses "mains voltage optimised copper" !

                                Ah, so they are nothing to do with tasers then?
                                I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                                I am not a number, I am a free man.

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