Radio 3 HD dropouts

[Guest]

I've just bought a Cambridge Audio NP30 streamer, primarily to listen to the R3 uncompressed 320k feed which is wonderful in its dynamic range and detail. However, during protracted listening over the past few days, there has been an annoying number of brief dropouts (especially during this morning's BAL). Whether the unit is connected via Ethernet or wi-fi makes no difference.

I've tried googling but can find no references to such problems. Does anyone know whether I'm alone in this? Where do I start?

Thanks.

[Bryn]

It is for this very reason that I principally use the 'listen again' option from the iPlayer. I will send you a PM re. further insurance against such drop-outs. I will leave it to Jayne of Mann to offer her ITunes solution.

[Gordon]

I've just bought a Cambridge Audio NP30 streamer, primarily to listen to the R3 uncompressed 320k feed which is wonderful in its dynamic range and detail. However, during protracted listening over the past few days, there has been an annoying number of brief dropouts (especially during this morning's BAL). Whether the unit is connected via Ethernet or wi-fi makes no difference.

I've tried googling but can find no references to such problems. Does anyone know whether I'm alone in this? Where do I start?

Thanks.

I have no in depth experience of the 320k HD feed but I do use the iPlayer a lot and I find that it breaks up frequently, not severely but small drop outs and gaps and occasional re-buffering pauses. I put this down to "internet weather" time-of-day effects that remain despite the fact that these streams are supposedly protected by protocols to limit damage caused by packet loss and disorder. I don't know what these protocols are precisely but they have to deal with the vagaries of the transmission networks through which the stream flows. Because they are delivered through best efforts networks there is no cast iron guarantee that all packets will get through all the time.

Think about the way that the audio gets to your DAC. At your end the decoder/DAC is fed by either Ethernet or WiFi; the decoder will have some buffering. The former is safer to avoid potential local RF effects but quality of service will also rely on your broadband router co-operating, especially when there may be others in the household using it, and on the speed of your broadband service. Your service provider servers, and any between it the BBC source server, also have to co-operate by providing a more or less continuous stream of data flowing to you [and everyone else listening]. Because of the vagaries of IP the BBC stream will need to be embedded in suitable protocols that work with these intermediate servers to support that flow. I don't know what their limitations are - there are legions of them specialising in various transmission defects - perhaps others here do. If there is a better iTunes solution as Bryn suggests then perhaps they package the stream better?

[jayne lee wilson]

I've just bought a Cambridge Audio NP30 streamer, primarily to listen to the R3 uncompressed 320k feed which is wonderful in its dynamic range and detail. However, during protracted listening over the past few days, there has been an annoying number of brief dropouts (especially during this morning's BAL). Whether the unit is connected via Ethernet or wi-fi makes no difference.

I've tried googling but can find no references to such problems. Does anyone know whether I'm alone in this? Where do I start?

Thanks.

Did you use the Radio 3 320k stream before this Dave, with other DACs or streamers? Was there any problem then? Any other recent changes to internet provision or equipment? If not, you need to ask Cambridge about that interface.

If you've only begun to use it with the Cambridge NP30, it could simply be down to your broadband speed. On BT Option 2, I still had occasional very brief dropouts, but after upgrading to BT Infinity they just went away, either hardwired or wireless. Totally reliable! So then you should check your broadband speeds/stability, as buffering would indeed produce such dropouts.

It may help to access the live stream via iTunes, which is:
iTunes>Radio>Classical>BBC Radio 3 High. The last 2 steps often need a double-click.

(Who is Jayne of Mann anyway? Says Jayne of Liverpool...)

[mangerton]

It may help to access the live stream via iTunes, which is:
iTunes>Radio>Classical>BBC Radio 3 High. The last 2 steps often need a double-click.

Jayne, I tried this and it didn't work. Some research on google (other search engines are of course available) produced this among other links which seem to indicate that itunes radio has not yet started - officially, at least.

Is the radio stream from the BBC's own website here in HD quality?

[Bryn]

... Is the radio stream from the BBC's own website here in HD quality?

It is indeed, 322kbps ABR aac with a sample rate of 44.1kHz.

[Bryn]

... (Who is Jayne of Mann anyway? Says Jayne of Liverpool...)

Oops. Somehow had you down as a Manxwoman.

[mangerton]

It is indeed, 322kbps ABR aac with a sample rate of 44.1kHz.

Thank you, Bryn.

[Bryn]

Thank you, Bryn.

I should perhaps add that my laptop is set up to get the iPlayer stream to default to "HI" bandwidth option. If yours is not, you may have to click on the "HI" button to make sure you don't get the "LO" bandwidth mono option. That's 49kbps ABR HE-AAC with a sample rate of 22.05kHz.

[jayne lee wilson]

Jayne, I tried this and it didn't work. Some research on google (other search engines are of course available) produced this among other links which seem to indicate that itunes radio has not yet started - officially, at least.

Is the radio stream from the BBC's own website here in HD quality?

I must live in a parallel universe since I've been using the iTunes feed since... 2011 or earlier... it always seemed more stable than R3's feed itself, but I think with BT Infinity it probably doesn't matter... it is all I use iTunes for since I dislike it as means of file storage/playback.

On this version of iTunes (the ancient 9.2.1) "Radio" is listed under "Library", so click on Radio and then you can choose "Classical", then scroll down the long, long list till you get to Radio 3 with the choice of High or Low... (note how hardly any other Classical stations offer anything more than 128kbps...).

Don't confuse "iTunes Radio" with all the other stations listed in iTunes!

[mangerton]

I must live in a parallel universe since I've been using the iTunes feed since... 2011 or earlier... it always seemed more stable than R3's feed itself, but I think with BT Infinity it probably doesn't matter... it is all I use iTunes for since I dislike it as means of file storage/playback.

On this version of iTunes (the ancient 9.2.1) "Radio" is listed under "Library", so click on Radio and then you can choose "Classical", then scroll down the long, long list till you get to Radio 3 with the choice of High or Low... (note how hardly any other Classical stations offer anything more than 128kbps...).

Don't confuse "iTunes Radio" with all the other stations listed in iTunes!

Thanks jayne. I'm using iTunes version 11.1.4.62, presumably less ancient than yours. I followed your instructions to no avail. There is no mention of radio.

iTunes help states "currently available in selected countries only. Presumably Scotland is not one of these.

[Bryn]

Thanks jayne. I'm using iTunes version 11.1.4.62, presumably less ancient than yours. I followed your instructions to no avail. There is no mention of radio.

iTunes help states "currently available in selected countries only. Presumably Scotland is not one of these.

On the most recent version of the dreaded iTunes (takes nearly 10 minutes to start on this Windows 7 running laptop, even after uninstalling and re-installing) click on the "Internet" button and navigate down to "Classical", then "BBC Radio 3 High".

[Gordon]

My version of iTunes is 10.6.2.25 and I have studiously ignored all offers to upgrade to 11.1.4 having been allerted to its greater faff factor by a daughter.

I can get BBC R3 Hi/320 just as Bryn describes [tabs are different in my Version: "Library">"Radio">List of Genres, choose "Classical">LIst of sattions : choose "BBC Radio 3 High" the Low option is there too] but running on XP [it also runs on W7 on a notebook provided nothing else does]. However, I do get short blips - not gaps but v short split second repeats. My internet download speed is around 5 Mb/s and at present there is nothing else using the channel.

PS: if I play around and ask to retrieve email or open a web site the sound blips. It does it on France Musique as well.

Anyone know of a way to get into the stream to see how it's behaving eg buffer occupancy etc?

[OldTechie]

My version of iTunes is 10.6.2.25 and I have studiously ignored all offers to upgrade to 11.1.4 having been allerted to its greater faff factor by a daughter.

I can get BBC R3 Hi/320 just as Bryn describes [tabs are different in my Version: "Library">"Radio">List of Genres, choose "Classical">LIst of sattions : choose "BBC Radio 3 High" the Low option is there too] but running on XP [it also runs on W7 on a notebook provided nothing else does]. However, I do get short blips - not gaps but v short split second repeats. My internet download speed is around 5 Mb/s and at present there is nothing else using the channel.

PS: if I play around and ask to retrieve email or open a web site the sound blips. It does it on France Musique as well.

Anyone know of a way to get into the stream to see how it's behaving eg buffer occupancy etc?

I have the new ITunes - I didn't mind upgrading because I really only use it to help with an iPad. The iTunes Radio is not what you might think - it seems to be a playlist of tunes supplied by Apple. With the new iTunes you get the BBC by selecting Internet and scrolling down to find it just as with the older and more usable versions.

On my 5-year-old machine running Windows 8.1 iTunes opens in 9 seconds (that is I hit the windows key, type "itu" (ignoring the silly menu screen), hit enter and at the 9 second mark the window is open.

However that is not how I start radio 3. I hit the windows key, type "rad", hit enter and a shortcut starts foobar2000 in about 4 seconds (including the typing time.) Foobar2000 then downloads the playlist for radio 3 which can take another 4 seconds or so, but may be much quicker, and then starts to play. Now, there may be a delay depending on how I have the buffers set. I usually set it for 15 seconds - and the audio does not start until the buffer is about half full. This avoids the drop-outs completely. This plays from the same Limelight CDN feed as iTunes. iPlayer on a PC or Mac plays from Akamai through Flash, but iPlayer on an iPad plays from Limelight because Apple bans Flash on iOS devices.

When the HD feed started, it was only available on a special web page - it was not even iPlayer itself. I had dropouts and I wanted to fix them I built a Windows application that hosted the Flash player and as a result I could set the flashvars that were loaded into the BBC Flash player object and connect to the logging it produced. It logged the state of its buffers so I could watch the operation. It would start by loading about 2 seconds of audio and then entering play. I could watch the buffer slowly getter less full until eventually it would get to zero. It would then stop and the BBC Flash object would realise the there was a clock difference with mine going faster than the BBC's and would intelligently restart with a bigger chunk loaded before entering play. When this happens you don't lose any sound. The restarted sound is the moment after the last sound you heard. On other days, the clock error would be in reverse and the buffer in the BBC Flash object would get fuller and fuller and then the connection would break completely. If you want to play with that I could probably resurrect the application.

You can watch the network feed rates easily in Windows 8/8.1 using the Performance Monitor. It's not so informative on XP. You can capture the network traffic with Wireshark or the Microsoft Network Monitor.

[Sydney Grew]

. . . the same Limelight CDN feed . . .

Thanks Mr. Techie; much unfamiliar information to ponder there!

CDN: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_delivery_network

Limelight: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limelight_Networks