Windows 7 or chance Windows 8.1?

[gurnemanz]

Windows 8 - death knell. It seems that Microsoft are admitting defeat and bringing back the desktop.

[ardcarp]

Having read all this stuff about Windows 8, and needing to get a new laptop for my grand-daughter, I ordered a Toshiba Satellite from the River People loaded with Windows 7. (In all the stores, Currys, PC World, etc, it's Windows 8 or nothing.)
BEWARE. The computer was faulty, refusing to operate on (fully charged) battery. When I raised a stink, the River People passed the buck to a firm who had supplied it for them. They replied saying yes, Toshiba is aware of the battery problem and suggested I contact them. What???!!!!

So the River People are taking my money (and probably shifting a load of old stock) not taking responsibility for it AND involving me in a load of hassle.

Suggest not buying new Windows 7 laptop online.

[johnb]

I would never, ever buy a PC or laptop from Amazon - only from a specialist online supplier with an established reputation and preferably one who is an authorised supplier or from the manufacturer direct. To be honest - buying such things online from elsewhere is a really very very bad idea. [Added later: this is more an instinctive feeling, rather than one based on any evidence and I might well be mistaken. I would still feel much more comfortable buying from a specialist supplier.]

I will almost certainly be buying a Windows 7 laptop later this year and I will buy it online, either from the manufacturer or from specialist online suppliers I have used previously.

(Incidentally Microsoft, seeing that Windows 8 hasn't exactly been enthusiastically received <cough>, is bringing out a new version of Windows - scheduled for April 2015.)

[johnb]

ardcarp,

Who supplied the laptop, was it Amazon or one of their third parties? Also, what model was it?

In any event you have a contract with Amazon and can demand a refund under the Sale of Goods Act as the laptop isn't fit for purpose. Also, if you paid by credit card you can claim on the card company.

If you want to check whether you are being told 'porkies' you can check the Toshiba forum and ask there whether there is a known problem.

[Pegleg]

ardcarp,

Sorry to hear your laptop purchase has lead to problems. If it had been stocked and supplied by Amazon themselves they don't normally quibble about returns, although you have to navigate their online procedures before you're able to speak to an agent directly. But it sounds like you've purchased the laptop from a 3rd party who have simply invoked the manufacturer's guarantee and returns policy. Good luck with sorting that out. Buying a laptop online poses the same risks as any other goods, you have to pick and choose the sellers.

Were you really sold old stock? Laptops are generally marked with serial numbers and a manufacturing date on the base. Which version of Windows 7 was pre-installed? Does it have a COA label on the base or in battery compartment? I'm no laptop expert, but is it possible that is just a battery fault?

You said there's nothing but Windows 8 in the stores. Both JohnB and I pointed out how you might get round that,.e.g:

A search on HP's store shows only business laptops have an option for Windows 7 Pro.

http://h20386.www2.hp.com/UKStore/Merch/List.aspx?sel=PBNB&ctrl=f

or from a typical computer etailer, cclonline, a search for laptops by operating system:

http://www.cclonline.com/category/101/Laptops/

Please remember Windows 8 was released to manufacturing in August 2012 and generally available by October 2012, with Windows 8.1 following the same pattern in 2013. The arrival of Windows 8 meant companies like Dell, Lenovo, Acer, Toshiba etc. adopting Microsoft's new licensing and new OEM activation 3.0 system, with the new data interchange requirements and a “digital product key” (DPK) is installed on the motherboard UEFI/BIOS during the factory manufacturing process. So the only way DELL etc can factory pre-install Windows 7 pro on a recently manufactured laptop is to do so via Windows 8 pro down grade rights, which are intended for businesses. Hence a consumer who wants a single laptop with Windows 7 pro pre-installed is likely only to find it amongst what the various makers call premium or business class laptops.

Microsoft has also adopted the policy of withdrawing the previous OS version from sale one year after the release of a new OS version. It's not clear whether MS has withdrawn Windows 7 from sale.( Of course remaining stock can still be found for purchase at the moment.) MS may have backtracked partly because of the relatively poor uptake of Windows 8, and partly because many of those migrating from the soon to be EOL Windows XP are likely to standardise on Windows 7.

[ardcarp]

johnb

Who supplied the laptop, was it Amazon or one of their third parties? Also, what model was it?

In any event you have a contract with Amazon and can demand a refund under the Sale of Goods Act as the laptop isn't fit for purpose. Also, if you paid by credit card you can claim on the card company.

Amazon's supplier was Techdeals4u, a Birmingham based outfit. I would certainly not recommend them. The model was a Toshiba S Pro.

Amazon has now insisted that this firm agree to a return and a full refund plus £25 I've spent on a visit from a technician. This has taken all morning to get fixed up..including talking to someone in person from Amazon. It's hassle we could all do without.

I'll defo not be buying online when (if?) I get my money back.

Any suggestions for a good supplier in the West Country, i.e. not too far from Exeter or Taunton?

Thanks for everyone's helpful comments.

[Quarky]

Is this the drive you mean? http://www.robertdyas.co.uk/seagate-...-drive-usb-3-0

Can't the Linux system be installed using the external drive, without cracking open the box? Obviously if anyone is easily able to swap drives in a machine (wasn't the original mentioned a laptop?) then the drive itself can be removed and installed into the computer, but it might not be necessary. Booting from USB would probably be a bit slower, but not orders of magnitude so.

The Robert Dyas/Seagate drive works out a bit more expensive with the postage, though one can always stock up on light bulbs, shoe polish, pans and other cleaning materials at the same time to get free delivery for £50+ of goods, or even just buy 2 of them.

Emerging Parsifal like from various battles with Klingsor and flower maidens, my current conclusion is that I am better off with an external hard drive, and installing neopolitan varieties of linux on the hard drive. As Frances noted, this isolates Linux from the Windows 7 o/s.

However there is still the problem of the GRUB booter, which apparently has to be installed with the Windows o/s before BIOS or UEFI, to enable choice of operating system. Can or should the GRUB boot be installed as a separate operation. Have I got hold of the wrong end of the USB?

Coments as ever appreciated, and which I find more helpful than surfing linux forums.

[Dave2002]

Just for interest, and since Mint has been mentioned, a few of the Linux mags have Mint distros at present - or they did a few days ago.

I'm planning to test one out when other things become less urgent.

[Frances_iom]

there are usually two factors with a UEFI boot machine - one is allowing it to boot from a DVD or USB stick (esp the latter) which may require require a change in the BIOS setting - disabling Fast Boot is normally required it seems;
the second arises if you wish to dual boot both windoze 7 + Linux from the same harddrive - Win7 does not officially require UEFI boot (tho win8 does and will not boot unless installed + operational) but the manufacturer may have added this Mickeysoft gotcha - you can check by entering the BIOS before it starts up (usually by switching on with delete or the F2 key depressed and switching between UEFI + what is often termed legacy boot - if it boots win7 in legacy mode life is easier and there are several guides online as to how to make it dual boot tho more recent distributions may well have automated this.

booting from a USB stick will probably be slower but several distributions allow you to set up the USB stick with a writeable partition so that files can be remembered between sessions - all modern Linux systems can read/write the Windoze file system (but guess what Windoze does not return the compliment ) so you can access/mody files - the Linux partitions will be invisible to windoze tho you can get around this by setting up a FAT partition on the USB stick which is readable by mickeysoft but I think this has to be placed at the start of the drive - I've not used this approach so you may need more online help - you could try www.reddit.com/r/Linux or in past I've found Mint forums to be helpful - there is usually a newbie section

[Pegleg]

Emerging Parsifal like from various battles with Klingsor and flower maidens, my current conclusion is that I am better off with an external hard drive, and installing neopolitan varieties of linux on the hard drive. As Frances noted, this isolates Linux from the Windows 7 o/s.

It seems you have settled on using an external hard drive for any Linux install.

However there is still the problem of the GRUB booter, which apparently has to be installed with the Windows o/s before BIOS or UEFI, to enable choice of operating system. Can or should the GRUB boot be installed as a separate operation. Have I got hold of the wrong end of the USB?

That does sound a little muddled. If you were intending to dual boot from the same hard drive, you would install Windows first and then Linux. The Linux bootloader GRUB2 would take over from the Windows loader and when you started your laptop you would be presented with a GRUB menu screen from which you could select to start Windows or whatever flavour of Linux you had installed. But you are not going to do this.

As you are going to install Linux on an external hard drive, the Linux bootloader GRUB2 should also be put on the external hard drive, and nowhere else. So how do you then select between using Windows or Linux when you start your laptop? In this case you will first use the laptop's own mechanism for selecting which device to boot from, this is built-in to its firmware/BIOS.

You do this by pressing a special key when the laptop starts. It is often, but not always, F12. This brings up the laptop's boot menu. This is how you would boot from say the CD or a USB stick instead of the laptop's hard drive. Once you have Linux on your external hard drive, this is how you will select to boot Linux. After using the laptop's boot menu, and selecting the external hard drive as the boot device, you will next see the GRUB2 boot menu.

If your laptop has UEFI, there can be added complications. Did you make the simple check I posted earlier?

Please check if Windows 7 was installed on a laptop using a traditional BIOS or UEFI legacy/compatabilty mode, or UEFI. The check is simple:

http://www.eightforums.com/tutorials...gacy-mode.html

Let us know the anwser.

[Quarky]

Many thanks Pegleg and Frances. Linux for dummies!

OK, I can see my fears about the GRUB bootloader are unfounded.
We have 3 laptops in the house. One 32 bit BIOS, one 64 bit legacy bios, and one 64 bit UEFI. The latter has a problem with "secure boot".
Plan was to put various versions of linux onto the external harddrive and select appropriate version for machine being used. But I think this is too ambitious.
For one reason the partition manager will only let me create 4 partitions. Considering that each linux installation requires three partitions, as I understand matters, this severely limits my freedom.
At least I'm learning a lot about hard drives!

[Pegleg]

Oddball,

A quick comment, more to follow later. Linux does not need three partitions for an installation. Two is OK. One for swap, and put everything else in a second which is mounted as the root partition (not the same thing as the root user) and is shown as "/" in images you might see of the MINT installer steps.

It's your call which laptop you want to use, the "32 bit BIOS, one 64 bit legacy bios" ones should be straighforward. But if you are going to install Linux on an external HDD use the installer to create the partitions you need, this should not limit your freedom. What you're seeing re: "partition manager will only let me create 4 partitions" is difference between using all primary partitions, which is limited to four under the traditional DOS/MBR scheme, and a mix of primary and an extended partition An extended partition is just a container which itself can be sub-divided into logical partitions. Hence you get past the 4 partition limit.

More questions for you. Which partition manager were you using? Why would a 4 partition limit be a problem on your external HDD? Do you want to have more than one version of Linux at a time installed on your external HDD?

Even if you used 4 primary partitions you could have three different version of Linux on the external HDD at once, sharing one swap partition. To maximise the number of possible partitions under the DOS/MBR scheme use three primary partitions, make the fouth paritition an extended partition, and then divide the extended partition into maximum 12 separate logical partitions. That's a maximum of 15 usable partitons. Unlike Windows, Linux doesn't care if it's installed on a primary or logical partition.

[Frances_iom]

seems that HP will still sell consumer grade laptops + desktops (tho my recent experience with HP is that they will just about last out the 1 year warrenty but not much longer) with Win 7 installed - http://www.computerworld.com/s/artic..._Windows_7_PCs

[johnb]

I bought a HP consumer grade desktop 2.5 yrs ago and it's still going strong, however the HP monitor I bought at the same time failed just after the 1 year warranty. I was all right because I had bought a HP Care Pack (though I never buy product insurance usually).

Incidentally I see that, the HP business website for the UK lists 41 desktops with W7 Pro pre-installed and 1 (!) with W8.

[Pegleg]

I don't know if the HP promotion, if that's what it is, mentioned in that computerworld article, applies to the UK. In any case the article does point out the choice is tiny - just two notebooks and three desktops. It also says: On the business side, HP and others, including No. 1 Lenovo and No. 3 Dell, continue to market Windows 7-powered PCs first, Windows 8 and 8.1 systems second, recognizing that corporations will stick with the 2009 OS for years to come.

Searching on the HP UK store by operating system under business laptops gives these figures:

Windows 7 Professional (32-bit)(5)
Windows 7 Professional (64-bit)(42)
Windows 8 (64-bit)(2)
Windows 8 Professional (64-bit)(8)
Windows 8(1)
Windows 8 Professional (32-bit)(4)
Windows 8.1 Pro 64(3)

(http://h20386.www2.hp.com/UKStore/Me...el=PBNB&ctrl=f and click on operating systems)

I can't see that the article headline is justified, and HP could simply be trying to attract/hoover up additional sales from those migrating from XP wiht this marketing ploy.