Windows 7 or chance Windows 8.1?

[John Wright]

I bought a Dell laptop a few weeks ago. I ensured it had Windows 7 so that I could network wirelessly with my 2-year old Win7 PC. Network for sharing/backup of files is good, though the 'Homegroup' system for easier (password-free) networking has never worked.

Also the laptop doesn't allow me to record sound from internet e.g. from youtube or iplayer via Audacity , that is the 'Stereo Mix' source is disabled.

[Frances_iom]

I suspect most here use a machine for a set of tasks - once you are happy that machine handles these then why upgrade, I've kept the same system for daily use on one machine for last 3 years - I may upgrade to a new machine in coming year as the battery holds less charge now - obviously if you are into dodgy websites then you may well want the latest security fixes for the browser but generally most malware is self inflicted by you installing it - you can of course run a copy of Linux within a virtual machine which if this is corrupted for any reason just delete the Virtual Machine copy - Linux is much better in this respect than the various windoze (esp XP which normally has to run as admin to do anything) and Mint is even better than most as it allows you to easily select which programs you update. Yes there are occasional hiccups but very very rare - eg I've replaced the harddrive 3 times - each time to increase the capacity for accessible photos (I transcribe 17/18th C docs) - just copy old harddrive contents to new harddrive, run a simple graphical program to extend a partition and bingo - also as a side effect the old drive can be placed into another machine (of different manufacturer) and immediately becomes operational (two small edits to the networking software to rename it to avoid confusion with the extended drive machine) and you have an instantly working clone.

[David-G]

I bought a Samsung series 9 "ultrabook" from John Lewis last January - I particularly wanted this model because of the superb screen. It came with Windows 8. After a considerable amount of effort, with advice gleaned from various internet forums, I have got it to essentially "look and feel" like Windows 7. There are some differences, e.g. I have not bothered to download a "start" button, which does not really bother me. So I seem to have managed to combine the look-and-feel of Windows 7 with the superb start-up times of Windows 8. The only significant problem that I have is that is that I have not managed to install certain recording software.

[gurnemanz]

I bought a laptop earlier this year at a local shop and the chap told me he was still putting Windows 7 on all new machines even though 8 was available. Not sure how accurate these figures are but this site even suggests W8 is in retreat.

[MrGongGong]

Yes Linux is the answer - I am in agreement with Mr. Gong Gong.
.

I would go onto Linux tomorrow if Audiomulch / Ableton / Sibelius ran on it
but until then will have to stick with OSX

[johnb]

Also the laptop doesn't allow me to record sound from internet e.g. from youtube or iplayer via Audacity , that is the 'Stereo Mix' source is disabled.

Have you checked the Sound settings via the Control Panel (Control Panel/Hardware and Sound/Sound)?

Go to the Sound control panel (Control Panel/Hardware and Sound/Sound).

Click on the "Recording" tab.

Put the mouse cursor on the middle of the panel and right-click. Then tick the "Show Disabled Devices" box.

This should then display the "Stereo Mix" as a recording device IF your sound card supports it and if your PC has the correct drivers.

Click on the Stereo Mix device to select it and click on the Properties button.

Look towards the bottom of the "Stereo Mix Properties" panel that appears and change "Device usage" from "Don't use this device" to "Use this device".

It is then a good idea to right click the "Stereo Mix" (or any other recording device that you use) - select "Properties". In the panel that appears, click on Advanced and select the "Default Format". This is usually initially set to "2 channel, 16 bit, 48,000 Hz (DVD Quality)" i.e. everything is resampled to and from 48,000 Hz. Depending on what you record you might want to change it to 44,100 Hz and tick the two "Exclusive Mode" boxes.

Good luck

(If that proves impossible on your PC - there is always TotalRecorder. Actually TotalRecorder is a better option in any case as it takes the data from earlier in the 'chain' instead of taking it from the output of your sound card, as Stereo Mix does. PC sound cards aren't exactly renowned for their quality.)

[johnb]

As far as the Linux debate is concerned - I have been using Linux (Ubuntu) on a server for some years now and it works fine (though you need to be of a techie bent to get to grips with it).

But for all the irritations of Windows I wouldn't swap it for Linux on my desktop/laptop. It would be just too much of a learning curve just to get to where I am now - and that is assuming there are equivalent Linux software programmes and utilities to those that I use on Windows 7.

[Pegleg]

I wonder if DracoM is still reading this thread. I'd ask what OS are you using now? (WinXP or Vista, perhaps) Do you intend to use Win7/8.1 on a laptop or desktop PC? Are you upgrading the OS on existing hardware, or are you purchasing new hardware? Are you a tablet/smartphone user?

If you are a tablet user you might find the transition from say WinXP to Win 8.1 more natural than if you are a habitual mouse/keyboard user. On a laptop you can make extensive use of the touchpad, see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnePyyyVwUo

But it can work well even for the mouse/keyboard user, but can take a bit of configuring, see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwsOcIF2aDk

The “classic shell” program has already been mention and is a must if you want Windows 8.1 to have a Windows 7 like interface. It's a free program and does a good job. See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppzxvu4ZRwA

If you current hardware has enough memory (say 4gb) and enough free disk space you can download and install VirtualBox for Windows and test drive Windows 7, Win 8 and Win 8.1 all for free as MS has provided pre-built Virtual Machines here:

http://www.modern.ie/en-us/virtualization-tools#downloads

Once you've installed VirtualBox for Windows from https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Downloads, download the Windows VM you want to try out. Follow the instructions and you will end up with a file you just click and and it should automatically open in Virtualbox. No technical knowledge is required here. Once your Windows virtual machine is open you can update it and add new applications as if it was the real thing, including the “classic shell” program..

If you're updating from WinXP and are not tied to particular MS applications, and don't like the idea of an OS pushing paid for content via a “store”, then I'd give Linux serious consideration. There will be a bit of a learning curve, but then none of us were born knowing MS Windows.

Modern Linux distros are user friendly, and you can install, configure and update software via “point and click” methods just as you would in Windows. There's as little need to use the command line in a terminal as there is to use cmd in Windows. In time, of course, you will come to appreciate the power of the command line. I'd recommend PClinuxOS KDE version, or Xubuntu/Lubuntu to those new to Linux. Linux can breath new life into older hardware and the best thing is you can try out Linux by using a LiveCD without touching your existing Windows OS. Just download the iso of your choice and burn it to a CD(RW)/DVD(RW), or stick if on a usb stick.

However Linux is not for the faint hearted. You are pitched into the raw frontier of computing, with glitches, reboots, update patches, being the order of the day.

That's not my experience of using Linux over a number years. Of course Linux evolves, software bugs are crushed, improvements are made, new hardware supported and new features introduced, etc. It's no different to Windows in this respect and unlike Windows does not require constant reboots as you say, and is incredibly stable with up times measured in days and weeks.

As far as the Linux debate is concerned - I have been using Linux (Ubuntu) on a server for some years now and it works fine (though you need to be of a techie bent to get to grips with it).

But for all the irritations of Windows I wouldn't swap it for Linux on my desktop/laptop. It would be just too much of a learning curve just to get to where I am now - and that is assuming there are equivalent Linux software programmes and utilities to those that I use on Windows 7. .

For someone who has Linux experience, I'm surprised you are reluctant to use it on your desktop. It's not perfect, but to my mind if offers more choice and user control than Windows, is devoid of Windows irritations, and can do more assuming there is not some Windows app you can't live without.

[John Wright]

Thanks for that response jhnb. Regarding laptop inability to record internet and line-in.

I've had these same discussions elsewhere.

Have you checked the Sound settings via the Control Panel (Control Panel/Hardware and Sound/Sound)?
Go to the Sound control panel (Control Panel/Hardware and Sound/Sound).
Click on the "Recording" tab.
Put the mouse cursor on the middle of the panel and right-click. Then tick the "Show Disabled Devices" box.....

No disabled device show up so seems to be down to the sound card.

I believe a USB plugged in sound card can cure this problem, but as you suggest TotalRecorder is a better option.

For now I'm OK as my 2 year old PC in Win7 allows me to use Algorothmix and Audacity audio-recording programs, it's just the laptop that won't do the same.

I mostly use the programs on the PC to restore music from 78s, so my record decks and amplifier are connected via the 'line-in connector'. Again, the laptop is not equipped with a line-in socket, so if I ever need/want to, how can I use the laptop for line-in recording from my amplifier/hi-fi? It has USBs and a microphone socket.

[DracoM]

Still using Windows 7, not keen to change it.
Advice and discussion on this thread have been terrific. MANY thanks. Still reading avidly.

All I need now is a printer that doesn't sick black ink all over the paper as it is printing.

[Pegleg]

Still using Windows 7, not keen to change it.

Don't, not for windows 8.1. Why did it even cross your mind, unless it was all that was being offered on prospective new hardware?

Advice and discussion on this thread have been terrific. MANY thanks. Still reading avidly.

All I need now is a printer that doesn't sick black ink all over the paper as it is printing.

Mono or colour, inkjet of laser? There are often recon low page count s/hand HP laser on ebay for bargain prices with toner cartridges included. What's your budget?

[Quarky]

Many thanks for comments, Pegleg.

[richardfinegold]

I'm an Apple guy, but we try to keep one current Windows computer around, for the times we need to run a program that won't play nice with Macs (usually work related). My current laptop has malware on it and my choices were paying someone to scrub it clean or just get a new one. I can't find one that has Windows 7; it seems to be 8 or bust. I haven't heard anything good about 8.

[Pegleg]

I'm an Apple guy, but we try to keep one current Windows computer around, for the times we need to run a program that won't play nice with Macs (usually work related). My current laptop has malware on it and my choices were paying someone to scrub it clean or just get a new one. I can't find one that has Windows 7; it seems to be 8 or bust. I haven't heard anything good about 8.

I'm not surprised you cant' find a new laptop with Win7, at least not on a new consumer grade laptop.


This was said earlier ...

“But laptops and desktops with Windows 7 installed (through downgrade rights) are readily available from online suppliers and the websites of major manufacturers (though you might need to navigate to the manufacturers business section)”

There's no might about, downgrade rights from Win 8 to Win 7 only exist for win8/8.1 pro

http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/licensing/sblicensing/pages/downgrade_rights.aspx#fbid=iVnwv1tZ3OF

which is aimed at business users, large or small.

To find a laptop that you can run Windows 7 pro on it needs to have been offered with Windows 8 pro, and you've either got to do the downgrade yourself or find a maker/seller that will do this at the time of purchase. Don't be surprised if this is only offered on business class laptops, for example some of the Lenovo Thinkpads. Whether such a laptop is affordable, or has the specs you want is another question.

How easy is it to downgrade from Windows 8/8.1 pro to Windows 7 pro yourself? First you've got to get the Windows 7 pro media. Legit downloads are still available from “digital river” :

http://forum.notebookreview.com/windows-os-software/604187-legal-download-digitalriver-windows-7-sp1-13-languages.html

The rest depends on the laptop's UEFI system. If it allows for legacy BIOS installs, then there shouldn't be any problems. Then you'd need to ensure Windows 7 drivers existed for the laptop hardware which would have to be installed. Finally, there's no guarantee that new laptop hardware tested with Windows 8/8.1 will work flawlessly with Windows 7, and the Win7 pro install will need to be activated. That you would have to research, but AFAIK many of Lenovo's current business class laptops are OK, but then you can get Windows 7 pro pre-installed on these anyway. Obviously, the latter is the preferred option, but it comes at a premium.

Despite, it's relatively poor uptake, MS is pushing users into Windows 8.1 whether they like it or not. The idea that your hardware is locked to Windows 8.1 via the mechanisms of UEFI + GPT + secureboot is abhorrent to me, just is the idea that the OS forces online subscription, ads, and paid services and apps on the user. (ios and andriod are almost as bad)

The day there is no open software, and hardware it will run on, is the day I stop using a computer.

[Dave2002]

I'm an Apple guy, but we try to keep one current Windows computer around, for the times we need to run a program that won't play nice with Macs (usually work related). My current laptop has malware on it and my choices were paying someone to scrub it clean or just get a new one. I can't find one that has Windows 7; it seems to be 8 or bust. I haven't heard anything good about 8.

I believe that Windows 8 comes with an option to revert to Windows 7, though that might not help if you get a machine with bundled software.

One option, which I may be about to try out, is to use Virtual Machines. Actually I have tried this before, using the free Virtual Box (https://www.virtualbox.org/ ) software, but I think that Parallels - http://www.parallels.com/uk/products...FWzHtAod33sAvQ - may be better. Another option is VM Ware - http://store.vmware.com/store/vmware...FWfkwgodmWYABw - which I have previously tried, though not used very much. Most of my contacts seem tp prefer Parallels - though that could simply be due to familiarity or other prejudice.

Running with VMs may need a machine with more memory - say 8 Gbytes or even 16 Gbytes. However, curiously, in my experience the VMs themselves seem to be very compact. I can't actually say whether VM operation is more or less efficient re memory in general.

If you can get an install disc for Windows (not just an upgrade disc) it should be possible to get it to run on most newer Apple machines using virtualisation. This won't be good for some software (games etc.) but for most serious applications should work well enough, and would save having to buy yet another PC machine.

One possibly good thing about using VMs is that controlling virus infections may be easier - though care is still needed. A VM can become infected, but in that case it can simply be deleted, and a known good one used. Viruses can come in via email, or imported/shared files with the external environment. They can also be exported. There is even a danger that VM users may become more effective at spreading viruses, yet remaining unaffected themselves.

I suspect that using VM systems effectively really requires having a number of VM images, with each only containing a few applications, so as to minimise any problems. Otherwise trying to run with a lot of applications in a VM could simply attract problems at the same rate as on a real hardware system.

I particularly want a VM so that I can run Appleworks (now obsoleted) which I still have running on PCs (not a great version) and on an iMac running Snow Leopard. I still find the drawing tools in that package much better than all the other tools I've tried which have come along since. For me it has the merits of being effective, and not too complicated. I have tried most of the recommended alternatives - but they're not as good.