DAB Report

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  • Nick_G
    Full Member
    • Aug 2012
    • 40

    #61
    UKRD boss: Digital body 'misleading MPs':

    The CEO of the UKRD Group, which operates 16 local commercial radio stations across the UK, has written to the head of Digital Radio UK, accusing him of misleading MPs and consumers over digital sw…






    This is the MP's letter that is referred to in William Rogers' statement:

    Blogger is a blog publishing tool from Google for easily sharing your thoughts with the world. Blogger makes it simple to post text, photos and video onto your personal or team blog.



    and a follow-up posted today:

    Blogger is a blog publishing tool from Google for easily sharing your thoughts with the world. Blogger makes it simple to post text, photos and video onto your personal or team blog.


    Seems to be a bit of a mess here!

    Comment

    • Gordon
      Full Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 1425

      #62
      I have just read a paper in the Journal of the AES for October [this year]. It is written by some Swedish researchers and they have done some tests comparing DAB+ and "FM". I put FM in quiotes because in the clip of one of their graphs here:



      there are 2 "FM"s - only FM2 should be noted as the other one is somewhat synthetic and theoretical. FM2 is a system very close to what is used in practice including a real FM transmitter. It is notable that broadcasters require a score of better than 80 on this scale for a system to be considered of the best quality. You note that FM2 doesn't make the grade but also that DAB+ at 160KBit/s just fails too with 128 not that far behind but better than FM2. One notes that FM2 is not as good as DAB+ at 96 with SBR.

      DAB+ at 192 succeeds comfortably, but, they claim, even higher bit rates would be needed to meet requirements with some critical material. That is no surprise. The reference is the audio under test with no processing whatever and so should score 100 but some of the observers clearly thought there was something wrong with it - it happens in subjective tests like these.

      Without going into delail - the paper is quite long - these tests are well done and observe all the requirements of the ITU so they are reliable and credible. The researchers did not test DAB [ie MP1L2] because it is not considered for Sweden's DAB service but t doesn't take a genius to see that DAB at 192 will not meet the grade but MAY get somewhere close to FM2 with some test material. Perhaps someone in government should aee this paper - I'm sure some techies in the BBC will!!
      Last edited by Gordon; 20-11-13, 21:04.

      Comment

      • Gordon
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 1425

        #63
        Originally posted by Nick_G View Post
        UKRD boss: Digital body 'misleading MPs':

        The CEO of the UKRD Group, which operates 16 local commercial radio stations across the UK, has written to the head of Digital Radio UK, accusing him of misleading MPs and consumers over digital sw…






        This is the MP's letter that is referred to in William Rogers' statement:

        Blogger is a blog publishing tool from Google for easily sharing your thoughts with the world. Blogger makes it simple to post text, photos and video onto your personal or team blog.



        and a follow-up posted today:

        Blogger is a blog publishing tool from Google for easily sharing your thoughts with the world. Blogger makes it simple to post text, photos and video onto your personal or team blog.


        Seems to be a bit of a mess here!
        Sure enough!!

        One small point, Mr Jones is mis-informed on one point. Government have not "ruled out" DAB+ they have placed the matter in the hands of "industry". Truth is some in that industry [receiver makers on the whole] don't want it and have fought it from the start. Despite that, under the government accepted minimum receiver specification for DAB receivers that will be applied to get a compliance Tick mark should a switchover be implemented, DAB+ must be present in those receivers "out of the box". IOW government will in fact effectively be mandating DAB+ in the receivers. All DAB car radios will be DAB+ anyway because of sales of vehicles in other territories where DAB+ might be used.

        Mr Rogers has been an implacabale opponent of DAB from the start. His commercial position gives him no option.

        Comment

        • Nick_G
          Full Member
          • Aug 2012
          • 40

          #64
          Thanks Gordon, yes I have read that paper myself as someone from a radio station kindly emailed me a copy. I'm sure I read that this paper has been sent to Ofcom or DCMS by the radio groups protesting against enforced switchover.

          Meanwhile I recently read a news article concerning the protests by the radio groups which contains this quote:

          "The group notes that a more comprehensive government follow-up study on the switchover issue has been promised following criticism by the House of Lords Communications Committee in 2010, but it understands that there are no plans to publish this prior to a switchover announcement and that the government’s workings will not be subject to any independent scrutiny."

          From http://advanced-television.com/2013/...al-switchover/

          I smell a possible rat here so I have sent a FOI request to the DCMS to obtain a copy. It's already nearly a year late as I was informed by the DCMS that the first results were expected to be published last winter after responding to the Government consultation on the matter. We'll see what happens.
          Last edited by Nick_G; 24-11-13, 19:58.

          Comment

          • Gordon
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 1425

            #65
            Today the Minister, Ed Vaizey made a speech at the BBC, you'll find it here:



            many of you will be pleased that he was unable to announce a date but the concensus was that around 2020 might be the time. There was a surprising amount of upbeat from across the industry about progress although its slow speed was acknowledged. So no switch yet but they have not given up. In fact the most upbeat speakers were the technologists [eg Frontier, chip makers] and the commercial players Global and Bauer as well as the car industry [at least in public]. We shall await Mr Rogers' splenetic reponse . He was conspicuous by his absence.

            An independent view of the meeting is here:



            from the chair of the Consumer Expert Group [CEG] part of the Action Plan which is more or less completed now and so the CEG is asleep pro tem. Note the final paragraph!!

            The Digital Radio UK press release is attached below,

            The Minister announced

            · Acknowledgement of progress, but no date for a switchover of national and large local stations.

            · A restatement of criteria to be met ahead of any switchover decision (50% listening, local commercial coverage and national DAB reaching FM equivalence).

            · Government and broadcaster investment to expand local DAB coverage to commercial FM equivalence (funded by Government, BBC and commercial operators) – increasing population coverage from around 70% to around 90%. This is an investment of £21 million and will give 4 million more households access to local stations on DAB.

            · Ofcom to offer the licence to build and run a new national commercial multiplex (Digital 2).

            · Ofcom to undertake a review of music formats for commercial radio to see if these can be relaxed.

            · Government to provide funding to support the development of low power DAB.

            · Digital ‘tick’ mark to be launched for radio products and installers. Information will be sent to the supply chain before the launch next year.

            · Mailings to be sent to all vehicle owners via the DVLA.



            Industry announcements were:

            · Halfords announced today that their radio range would be 100% digital in 2015 and that digital radio trained installers would be available in their 460 stores, within 20 minutes’ travel for 90% of the population.

            · Kwik Fit said they would offer digital radio installation initially through its network of Kwik Fit Plus centres.

            · Partnership between Frontier Silicon and Imagination delivers Chorus 4 fourth generation highly integrated digital radio chip. The single chip offers support for all global digital radio standards and legacy analogue radio formats and offers lower cost and greater energy efficiency. This new chip will see digital radio be implemented in a broader range of devices than ever before – including portable radios for under £20, devices with Bluetooth connectivity and will make it possible for digital radio to be integrated into mobile devices.

            · Partnership between STMicroelectronics and Imagination to deliver a next generation highly integrated multi-standard programmable radio solution covering all radio formats for car radios. With STMicroelectronics as a leading provider for electronics for automotive this partnership is set to positively move penetration of digital radio in automotive forward.

            · Pure will support the new ‘digital tick’ specification in all its products from 2014.

            · Ford of Britain announced that the UK’s top-selling van, the Transit, will have digital radio and that the All-New Transit Courier and All-New Transit Connect will feature DAB as standard. The All-New Transit and Transit Custom will have DAB available as an option priced at £75+VAT.

            · Radioplayer, the online listening platform backed by the BBC and commercial radio, has been chosen as Ford’s launch partner for their new SYNC AppLink technology, bringing online radio into Ford cars.

            · Argos now offers a £24.99 Bush digital radio adapter, which is capable of converting domestic analogue radios to receive DAB.

            I was told by a reliable EBU source [confirmed on page 6 of this: https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech-i/ebu_tech-i_018.pdf but also with other very interesting articles] that Norway will switch off FM in 2017 and ude DAB+ and also that Denmark will almost certainly follow as might Sweden and Holland. Switzerland is said to be looking at 2019. Germany - that is the domino that everyone is looking at - has decided DAB+ but no firm date yet [German car manufacturer spokesman] because they are concerned about car reception still. Apparently the Germans are great car listeners, perhaps more that the Brits. If BMW were to improve their lousy aerials it might improve prospects there.
            Last edited by Gordon; 16-12-13, 21:09.

            Comment

            • amateur51

              #66
              Originally posted by Gordon View Post
              · Argos now offers a £24.99 Bush digital radio adapter, which is capable of converting domestic analogue radios to receive DAB.
              The Argos listing refers to 'five hours [as a portable] before the battery needs re-charging'

              When oh when is 'the industry' going to address this? No use to man nor beast, imho

              I get a full week to ten days of listening all night on 2 x AA rechargeable batteries on FM/LW - that's more like it

              Comment

              • Gordon
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 1425

                #67
                Originally posted by amateur51 View Post
                The Argos listing refers to 'five hours [as a portable] before the battery needs re-charging'

                When oh when is 'the industry' going to address this? No use to man nor beast, imho

                I get a full week to ten days of listening all night on 2 x AA rechargeable batteries on FM/LW - that's more like it
                I know, but the truth is, technically, if you use a truly analogue FM or LW/MW demodulator, a simple tuner with manual action using a knob and thread to move a finger across a scale, and don't have electronic displays etc, that power consumed can be very small. Hard to beat the simplicity of an old 1960s FM receiver design but their performance against a modern design isn't so good. Remember Hacker? Built like battleships.

                Frontier stated today that the latest chip set that supports ALL [that's what he said] digital broadcast formats and has power consumption "equal to FM". I wonder about which form of FM receiver he's comparing with - some modern receivers use a chip set to demodulate FM and MW/LW and also have electronic displays and tend so consume the same power as DAB. Limited time for questions to ask.

                Comment

                • Eine Alpensinfonie
                  Host
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 20591

                  #68
                  Did anyone notice how Radio 4 announced the decision to defer any switch-off will enable us to "hear more of this", and then played examples of tuning interference.

                  No BBC bias here then?

                  Comment

                  • retroman
                    Full Member
                    • Feb 2012
                    • 22

                    #70
                    Forgive me for not reading all of this discussion, but allow an ex-BBC sound balancer and active audio professional to stick his oar in. Firstly, FM, if you can forbear not to use things like Optimod processing, is to all intents and purposes transparent - the stereo multiplex system is a very clever piece of engineering, and still well fit for purpose - not perfect, but better than the DAB system.

                    Lossy compression should be in the bin by now, but if we have to have it, there are far better algorithms than those in DAB, and trying to claim equivalence to uncompressed for anything less than 320kB/s is fraudulent. Far too much emphasis is placed on the Orwellian "digital good - analogue bad" argument, which is simplistic and wrong. And as for that sub-Barry White glove puppet...!

                    The plain fact is that DAB is a dead horse, but that too much economic and political capital has been put into it for the juggernaut to be stopped. So the AA (for which read "government report") is brought in every so often to shove it a few more miles along the road. When it dies, I for one shall not weep for it.

                    Comment

                    • Nick_G
                      Full Member
                      • Aug 2012
                      • 40

                      #71
                      Has anyone seen this thread on Media UK, in which James Cridland appears to defend Quentin Howard after appearing on a recent You & Yours?:



                      In it Quentin Howard suggests that about half the listeners to the programme were listening via DAB, which is not the same thing as Cridland's interpretation. There is audio of the DAB piece here:



                      If you listen to the whole interview with Quentin Howard, it seem clear to me that he is trying to hype up the DAB listening figures in a misleading way in an attempt to justify a switchover as soon as possible. He makes Ford Ennals seem like a saint (well, almost). Howard really should have been challenged on that statement. It's one of the more galling examples of the spin, hype and BS put out by those who have a vested (financial) interest in a DSO.

                      In a follow-up programme, Winifred Robinson said that out of 300 responses from the public, only 3 were in favour of DAB:



                      I suspect that Howard's performance may have contributed to this.

                      Comment

                      • Bryn
                        Banned
                        • Mar 2007
                        • 24688

                        #72
                        Re. the issue of what some listeners might consider to be digital radio, I wonder how many may well still think that an AM or FM radio with a digital display falls into the category of "digital radio"?

                        Comment

                        • Don Petter

                          #73
                          Originally posted by Bryn View Post
                          Re. the issue of what some listeners might consider to be digital radio, I wonder how many may well still think that an AM or FM radio with a digital display falls into the category of "digital radio"?
                          Indeed! Our Telefunken bedside alarm clock radio (FM/MW only) is boldly labelled 'Digital' because of the clock display!

                          Comment

                          • retroman
                            Full Member
                            • Feb 2012
                            • 22

                            #74
                            When the first stirrings of marketing DAB happened in 1992-odd, the chief spokesman was a producer I had worked with - good at tabloid radio, but a technical dud. To hear him going on about "CD quality radio" was hilarious and sickening in equal measure. Near enough to a quarter century later, the same old rubbish is being pushed. If the broadcasters can't or won't explain the difference, how is Joe Public supposed to know?

                            Comment

                            • Don Petter

                              #75
                              Originally posted by retroman View Post
                              When the first stirrings of marketing DAB happened in 1992-odd, the chief spokesman was a producer I had worked with - good at tabloid radio, but a technical dud. To hear him going on about "CD quality radio" was hilarious and sickening in equal measure. Near enough to a quarter century later, the same old rubbish is being pushed. If the broadcasters can't or won't explain the difference, how is Joe Public supposed to know?
                              I thought they had now been stopped from saying DAB is 'CD quality', which it was (almost) at the original bit rates, but not for long, as we know.

                              Comment

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