I'm Looking to Upgrade My Current Sound System

[Phileas]

Nevalti

Your music centre analogy is fine and I would expect such a system using good quality components, if well designed, to be very capable.

I have no particular issue with "digital" (technically class D) amplifiers but the amps in my AVI actives are actually class AB.

As for "trusting" the designer, the same thing applies to the individual components of a passive speaker and in turn the individual parts of each drive unit and so on.

[Nevalti]

Nevalti

Your music centre analogy is fine and I would expect such a system using good quality components, if well designed, to be very capable.

I have no particular issue with "digital" (technically class D) amplifiers but the amps in my AVI actives are actually class AB.

I'm very surprised to hear that. There must be a lot of vents to let all that heat out! 250 watts Class B creates a lot of heat Class A vastly more! It also makes the price even more surprising as AVI boxes and the drivers tend to be very high quality and therefore very expensive. The cynic in me screams out that there has to be a compromise somewhere. It is a great shame that AVI make it impossible to compare their wares with anything else before you buy. They just want you to buy on-line and on trust them.

As for "trusting" the designer, the same thing applies to the individual components of a passive speaker and in turn the individual parts of each drive unit and so on.

Not at all Phileas, with separate components you don't have to trust anyone. You simply have to sit down relax and listen at leisure to music of your choice. No science, no theory, no 'should' or anything else. Use just your ears and some lovely music. You simply have to get that music as good as your wallet allows. The active AVIs etc are undoubtedly good but not as good as you can get - otherwise, why would they ever make more than one model or upgrade them? It is rather like cameras..... there are many superb 'bridge' cameras that do everything in one package, and they do a wonderful job, but they can not hope to compare with a top-notch system camera. How often do you see a photo-journalist using just a compact camera?

[Phileas]

The AVI amps are designed to supply a lot of power for very short periods to match the duty-cycle of music, hence the lack of heatsinks and massive power supplies. I believe a lot of of AV amps do the same.

I don't think this thread should be turned into an AVI versus everything else discussion. There are choices with active speakers as with any other type and more options are gradually becoming available.

[Nevalti]

The AVI amps are designed to supply a lot of power for very short periods to match the duty-cycle of music, hence the lack of heatsinks and massive power supplies.

Yes indeed. The AVI web-site does say that the cooling is 'usually' adequate'. They almost certainly have thermal cut-outs to prevent them self-destructing if someone chooses to play them long and loud.

I believe a lot of of AV amps do the same.

I believe that most AV amps are digital (Class D if you prefer) and barely need any ventilation.

I don't think this thread should be turned into an AVI versus everything else discussion. There are choices with active speakers as with any other type and more options are gradually becoming available.

I wholeheartedly agree. I only commented on active speakers to try to help the OP understand that they were a dead-end. If people are happy with that particular dead-end that is great for them. If they want realistic music in their lounge, they will have to put in a little extra effort in the selection process. Even a £30,000 active studio monitor is unlikely to sound 'right' in your lounge.

I have nothing whatsoever against AVI or ATC, PMC, M-Audio, Tannoy, JBL, etc, etc, who make excellent active speakers. My concern is that you can not upgrade them. It is rather like buying a car. My car was wonderful when I bought it but 6 years on, there are better cars available with more facilities. The % depreciation on active speakers is probably about the same as for cars yet a good passive speaker may last you 20 years or more, whilst still rivalling anything else on the market, and it may still re-sell for 50% or more of what you originally paid. Good amplifiers have exactly the same story.

Using AVI simply to illustrate my point - they make several models which tells us straight away that some are better than others (frequency response would be my biggest concern with most of them). They also refer in their web-site to several updates they have made which yielded significant improvements. THEY can make improvements but WE can not. THEY know that they are not perfect and so do WE.

[Dave2002]

Does a digital amp necessarily have to be Class D? See recent posts.

[Gordon]

Just a bit of technical grounding here: "Class D" amplifiers are not "D for Digital", they are a class of amplifier in a sequence [A, B, AB (a hybrid), C , etc] . Their main feature is that they are efficient but at a cost.

That cost is that they are effectively a "Sampling" Amplifier Horror of horrors! The amplifier is normal as far as the output power stage which is switched at a high rate [higher than the highest frequency in the audio] so that the low level audio is multiplied by the switching signal and thus transforms the spectrum as it were sampled [just like digital PCM]. It requires a low pass filter at the output [let's say a speaker crossover? - but easier to control in an active speaker] to remove all the nasty crud caused by the switching. Performance is only as good as that filter which is a high power device - not a good idea - desgned to be highly reactive so it doesn't consume power. Good at low level not so good at high power. All transistor radios have Class D in them [3rd party chips] because it helps with battery power.

Quad's Current Dumpers were similar to Class D but had the decency to deal with the distortion using a good linear low level amplifier with feedback to deal with consequences..

[Nevalti]

Hello Everyone,

I apologize if this thread slightly overlaps with the SACD player thread.

I am ill and my condition has deteriorated recently. As a result of various things music has become more important to me. Lately I've bought a number of recordings, my collection has grown from nothing to 400 -500 CDs (if you include boxed sets).

I use a computer and a nice pair of headphones to listen to the radio/music (not a great sound system I know ). I've never owned a CD player or Hi-Fi but would now like to purchase a sound system? If that's the correct term, I'm not sure where to start or what I need to be looking for.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I'd also be interesting I knowing how you listen to your music?

BWV 988

Are you still there BWV 988?
Has any of this discussion helped?
Do you have any supplementary questions?

Other 'interesting' subjects are the pros and cons of different types of amplifier (primarily: valve or solid state, A, B, AB & D), the influence of the various cables and the potential benefit of HiRes music i.e. anything above CD standard.

[pastoralguy]

I'm lucky enough to have a very fine Hi-Fi system which I have built up over many years and it is a source of great joy to me (and my wife!). It's on just now and we're listening to the Dutoit/Zuckermann recording of 'Harold in Italy'. Mrs. PG doesn't know this piece at all so it's super for me to introduce her to it in good quality reproduction. However, that's what it is - a reproduction. Last year we went to the Usher Hall to hear the Philadelphia Orchestra play Berlioz's 'Fantastic Symphony'. We'd splurged for good seats and, not to put too fine a point on it, it blew our socks off!

I've been lucky enough to hear a £100, 000 Linn system and no-one is going to pretend to me that hearing a production cd of the same work on a totally un-affordable system is even close to what we experienced at the Usher Hall last year. But without Hi-Fi, we wouldn't know nearly as many works as we do. We accept that we can't hear Dutoit and the Philadelphia orchestra every night of the year. (In fact, with the worlds economic problems at the moment, it may be years before we hear them again). But, we do have a good system to bridge the gap until it does happen with many thousands of discs to choose from until those fabulous Philadelphians come ridinginto town again!

I suppose my point is that it's not as good as the real thing but it'll do nicely until it happens again.


Mind you, many years ago, I went to hear Brendel in a sold out Usher Hall during the Edinburgh Festival. I had a fidgety 6 year old to my left, a person with a chest infection to my right and the air conditioning faulty. On that evening, I would have rather been sat at home on my comfy sofa with a glass of wine and Mr. Brendel and Schubert on the Hi-Fi.

[Stephen Smith]

..... There is the whole issue of how to buy audio equipment: a generalised shop, online (on-spec), in a specialise Hi-Fi shop......

I have gone into an audio dealer asking to hear (and intending to buy) one piece of equipment, but walking out with another. In retrospect, I felt that I had been "sold to" and this can come from all the suggestive magazine articles which lay the ground (nowadays including interconnects, mains conditioners, mains power leads etc etc) and then the subtle manipulation, as to one's inferiority (for owning one's present system, or what one is interested to hear) and the clearly superior quality of what the dealer is suggesting is the way forward.

As to buying, and the risk of ending up with a sound you couldn't live with - well, specifically as a suggestion - if you were willing to consider an active system, as I previously suggested (post #95, page 10) then the distance selling regulations can be your friend. Order via the internet shop, listen away for 7 days (obviously taking great care to keep them in pristine condition) and notify the seller of the intention to cancel and then return if you can't live with the sound. I'm not sure what local audio dealers are offering, on the whole, in the way of home trials these days - for the combinations of audio units you would try for an uprated system - perhaps they can match that?

[Nevalti]

..... I'm not sure what local audio dealers are offering, on the whole, in the way of home trials these days - for the combinations of audio units you would try for an uprated system - perhaps they can match that?

A good hifi dealer is usually VERY accommodating. I have barely bought anything without a home trial.

On one occasion, when I was struggling to find a way around a particular problem, two knowledgeable and enthusiastic Salisbury hifi staff came to my house with half a dozen amplifiers and other equipment. They listened to my existing system and then we sat in my lounge and tried their other amps etc for several hours. After all that effort that they put in, they readily agreed that their new amps were no better than my existing, flawed one. Not for one instant did they try to bamboozle me. They then very politely apologised for wasting my time! Exemplary service given presumably because they know I will buy from them again if I need anything.

[jayne lee wilson]

I have gone into an audio dealer asking to hear (and intending to buy) one piece of equipment, but walking out with another. In retrospect, I felt that I had been "sold to" and this can come from all the suggestive magazine articles which lay the ground (nowadays including interconnects, mains conditioners, mains power leads etc etc) and then the subtle manipulation, as to one's inferiority (for owning one's present system, or what one is interested to hear) and the clearly superior quality of what the dealer is suggesting is the way forward.

As to buying, and the risk of ending up with a sound you couldn't live with - well, specifically as a suggestion - if you were willing to consider an active system, as I previously suggested (post #95, page 10) then the distance selling regulations can be your friend. Order via the internet shop, listen away for 7 days (obviously taking great care to keep them in pristine condition) and notify the seller of the intention to cancel and then return if you can't live with the sound. I'm not sure what local audio dealers are offering, on the whole, in the way of home trials these days - for the combinations of audio units you would try for an uprated system - perhaps they can match that?

Hi Steve - hope you saw my (much!) earlier response about being friendly...

Yes - I've had that same experience, in 1992, going to hear a Pioneer A400 and coming home with a QED A240... I loved living with that (thank goodness), and it sits in my Mum's bedroom system even now, never serviced, still singing away! But I always wondered how the famous A400 might have been...

I usually have no trouble getting a 1 or 2 week home trial from good, serious dealers; if you offer to pay them on SOR, then so long as they know you're serious about your music (drop in a few details about your system etc.) then it's usually OK. I got the T&A DAC 8 from the HighEnd Speaker Company in North Lancs, 2-week trial, really friendly and helpful. Earlier distance-dealings with Signals in Ipswich, Audio Salon Glasgow, and Oxford Audio were fine too. A pre-phonecall email, telling them about your aspirations, approach, system etc., may help to smooth the ground.

Use humour - I said to Jack Lawson in Glasgow (about the Townshend Maximum Supertweeters) "will you still be friendly if I have to send them back?" He did like that!

(Obfuscations and evasions, common sense and wilful fantasy, enthusiasms and vigorous debate, true technical expertise, fallings-out and (hopefully) fallings-back-in... what an UPROARIOUS, record-breaking thread this is. Those who avoid the Techy stuff don't know what they're missing!)

[Nevalti]

.....Yes - I've had that same experience, in 1992, going to hear a Pioneer A400 and coming home with a QED A240... I loved living with that (thank goodness), and it sits in my Mum's bedroom system even now, never serviced, still singing away! .......

Well I never. I did damn near the same thing around that date. QED were really going through a golden period but they were simply not taken seriously because of their prosaic origins. People always seem to want to spend money on a name (Naim? ) rather than trust their own ears. I ended up with a QED C300 pre & two P300 power amps vertically bi-amping. A little bass light but a beautifully delicate presentation. It took about ten years to find anything better than them and eventually I sold them for almost what I paid new. It's amazing how cheap hifi can be if you use some common sense before opening your wallet. I find it quite sad that some people think you need to spend a fortune OR that it is a waste of money.

[french frank]

I've diverted the posts that are perhaps of less immediate use to the OP but still of interest to a separate thread here.

[jayne lee wilson]

Well I never. I did damn near the same thing around that date. QED were really going through a golden period but they were simply not taken seriously because of their prosaic origins. People always seem to want to spend money on a name (Naim? ) rather than trust their own ears. I ended up with a QED C300 pre & two P300 power amps vertically bi-amping. A little bass light but a beautifully delicate presentation. It took about ten years to find anything better than them and eventually I sold them for almost what I paid new. It's amazing how cheap hifi can be if you use some common sense before opening your wallet. I find it quite sad that some people think you need to spend a fortune OR that it is a waste of money.

I ended up with almost exactly that, Nevalti...Scrimpin' and savin', I added two P300s, one by one, using the A240 as the pre. By the time I bought the second P300 2ndhand, they'd reduced the input sensitivity, so I had to send it to QED to readjust. Such adventures. I recounted earlier in the thread how one of the P300s blew up, taking a loaned Kelly KT2 speaker with it... I recall telling someone back then that these amps were "almost comically shy of dynamics". A bit unfair perhaps, but driving the 86db Wharfedale 505.2s (now in that bedroom system), you had to take care with volume setting, especially with pianos and vocals - there wasn't a lot of peak current. (The A240, as an Integrated, had a smaller-scale soundstage, but overloaded a little more gracefully).

But yes, a lovely amp, a way-station with fond memories...