I'm Looking to Upgrade My Current Sound System

[Phileas]

Active speakers can of course be absolutely fine but they are inevitably a dead-end compromise because once you have bought it you can’t change anything without tearing the box apart.

I'm not sure why an owner of a pair of active speakers would have any need to change anything? One of the many advantages of active speakers is that the designer can match the amplifiers to the drive units.

With the "traditional" approach, amplifier matching is left to the end-user, which seems a bit "primitive" IMHO. :)

(Obviously, a hi-fi hobbyist may feel differently.)

[MrGongGong]

I'm not sure why an owner of a pair of active speakers would have any need to change anything? One of the many advantages of active speakers is that the designer can match the amplifiers to the drive units.

Given that most of the studios I have been to in the last few years seem to all use active speakers for mastering and monitoring (including some rather high end mastering affairs) then I would , if I had the budget, definitely go down that route ........ (Genelecs or ATC's maybe)

[Dave2002]

Given that most of the studios I have been to in the last few years seem to all use active speakers for mastering and monitoring (including some rather high end mastering affairs) then I would , if I had the budget, definitely go down that route ........ (Genelecs or ATC's maybe)

There is at least one possible assumption here, one of them being that you like the sound you have heard in the studios you have visited.

Do active speakers generally have a variety of digital inputs (which implies an inbuilt DAC) plus at least one analogue input? Perhaps there's no need for a pre-amp if there's only one input source.

[MrGongGong]

There is at least one assumption here, one of them being that you like the sound you have heard in the studios you have visited.

Do active speakers generally have a variety of digital inputs (which implies an inbuilt DAC) plus at least one analogue input? Perhaps there's no need for a pre-amp if there's only one input source.

I DO like the sound in some of the studios I have worked in , not all ,and the needs of critical listening in a studio can be different to home listening
most people I know use external converters (RME being a popular choice) and would either send via a desk (digital or analogue) or straight from the converter
I don't really do "hi end" hi fi BUT do have a small mixing desk in the system I use for most listening and editing etc

[Stephen Smith]

AVI speakers make the ADM 9 which has optical (TOS link) inputs (3 of them, I think, without looking at the back of my speakers) and one analogue. The digital signals go into a DAC, and all use the amplification (matched to each drive unit) - all of this in the speaker cabinets. Powerful amps, clear and clean sound, and I have found them good value.

http://www.avihifi.com/

I don't enjoy choosing interconnects, DACs, Amplifiers (nor paying for them) so it has greatly simplified my approach to audio and I have stopped reading audio magazines and don't need to consider replacing one element of a system with another.

The only complication comes from having to set up a computer music system (iTunes or what?). My 1st port of call will be wireless streaming (from my Windows 7 laptop) to an apple Airport express (<£100 or so) at the back of my ADM's to provide the digital input signal via TOS link (Radio will be streamed via iTunes radio stations). If I need different music in different rooms I could consider Sonos, at greater expense.

When I get to set up a vinyl player, then it will be via the phono stage and analague cables (I have a number from the "old days") so I will have to get up and walk to the player (and change it every 20 mins or so - real exercise - but then I haven't retained much vinyl)

All this has proved an economical, revealing and highly enjoyable way to replay music. Also, after a recording at a London studio, the chorus I was singing with were invited into the control room to listen to the "1st cut" and the sound reproduction was stunning. And it was active speakers - I understand sound professionals virtually all use active speakers.

However, it all depends on what you want - the sound you are looking for, the amount you want to spend, the time and money you have available to consider them and trial the equipment you are interested in. So the above is just my personal experience.

[jayne lee wilson]

I've said nearly all I had to say earlier, but do remember that lack of a USB input on those AVI Actives, a deeply puzzling omission, given its universality on computer sources and the relative fragility of an optical signal (and often the cable) compared to a USB (especially USB Asynchronous).

Self-evidently I align myself with Nevalti here. No, it isn't easy to create a great and musical system. But nothing truly worthwhile is ever easy, is it? And since all active speakers sound different, they aren't a panacea either. No escape from subjectivity and preference, either of rooms or ears!

[Stephen Smith]

Just in response to the points made.

The airport express ("AEX"), positioned close to the back of the AVI master speaker, provides a Toslink input, so USB is not needed. And just to recall, the original poster raised this topic, having used headphones on his laptop, and wanting to add speakers to his audio options.

If a physical connection (wires across the room) is needed units such as the Edirol/Roland UA-25 can convert USB to toslink - but surely wireless streaming is the way ahead? Soundcards of quality provide optical output (and Apple and some other laptops provide the same in their dual purpose 3.5.mm jack socket (optical at the jack plug tip)). (I forgot to mention its also possible to stream to the AEX from other units - including the iPod touch (more recent generations) and iPad and no doubt others (using airplay? - I think)).

I've not heard that Toslink cable is fragile - fibre optic cable handles billions of digital signals for bulk communications traffic, so is presumably reliable. I handle toslink with the same care as any other cable - no kinks or unduly tight bends.

In my experience, this time it hasn't had to be difficult to be worthwhile, so there is that difference between us. I've spent enough time, angst and (some) money on audio over 3 decades - now I can just deliver the digital signal to my system, and then experience clear, powerful, and above all, enjoyable sound. All achieved at (in the scale of things) modest cost - under £1500 (for the airport express and ADM 9RSS). And I no longer read audio magazines, nor consider a need to upgrade. So just to say there is another option - for any readers coming upon this thread - another option to consider. The ADM speakers can be heard at their dealers, or tried at home as they are supplied by internet order (so distance selling regs apply) - or other active speakers (with no DAC) are available - the most choice at pro audio dealers where speakers are all (or nearly all) active (e.g brands such as Yamaha and Mackie).

[jayne lee wilson]

Airport express is still limited to 16/44.1 though, isn't it? So no playback of hi-res downloads, though I daresay AVI owners here won't worry too much... how does CD playback work on the active AVI system?

My main point about optical AUDIO signals (as opposed to telecommunications) is that they can be prone to higher jitter levels than USB asynch, if they're not handled well in the Dac. And you're still depending on the accuracy of the computer's clocking out. Time-adaptive filtering can be fine (I don't know what AVI use), but the USB asynch makes the DAC the master clock, which should render the digital accuracy of the source less crucial. But, as ever, if you enjoy it and it's easy to use...

[Stephen Smith]

I play a CD through the CD drive in my laptop if I haven't put it into my iTunes library. That's easy enough. Alternatively, I can use the Toslink from my CD player as I have the option of a physical connection as well.

Hi- Res - I would pay for a Hi Res download - but only if it was known to be a new and superior - so worthwhile - source file (access to original or re-mastered source file). From reports I have read, its the quality of the recording which is more important than the bit rate of the download, once you reach lossless rates. After that, ABX testing does not show that listeners can hear the difference from CD quality. So, in summary having bought, for example, the vinyl and CD versions of the LSO/Britten War Requiem, I'm not up for paying for it a 3rd time unless the Hi-Res master file gives a clearly superior, so new to the market, source . When replayed, I don't expect to be able to hear the difference between Hi Res and CD quality, so I am not hung up on that limitation of the AEX, but I should hear a better mastered recording.

So, I have reservations about Hi Res as it has familiarity - the industry needs the next big thing to provide an income stream to replace declining revenue (3D TV springs to mind) sells me something I didn't know I needed. I would also be looking out for tricks such as old source files upsampled to the "Hi Res" data rate, with no real improvement, but, agreed, with more bits/bytes if you care to count them when downloaded.

I'm not an electrical (or any sort of) engineer. I don't hear any jitter to speak of (what does it sound like, to you, when you hear it?). Are the 0's and 1's in the optical digital signal via Toslink different or more corrupted than the 0's and 1's in the USB cable you are looking for as a connection?

I've said what I hear - very clean, powerful sound, in short a great listening experience. Anyone interested in upgrading their system can follow this up themselves (not yourself, I appreciate, as you have reached a solution more than satisfactory to yourself, it is clear from what you say). I don't consider that I have low standards, which you clearly infer. I'm afraid I am unable to discuss matters such as "time adaptive filtering" - its clear from what I have said that I find these active speakers give excellent reproduction and represent astoundingly good value (as do other actives by repute). So, as I say a reader coming upon this thread will know they have another option, they can investigate and hear for themselves. Surely that is acceptable?

[jayne lee wilson]

Steve - My points above USB/optical, filter types etc. were strictly technical distinctions - the lower the jitter level, the cleaner the sound will be. Audible signs can be harshness, muddiness, or, more likely, just a slight loss of intimacy and low-level detail. Of course, at what point you notice such things depends on ears and systems. But some fussypusses like me would rather know that's it's pretty damn low to start with! (Studying HIFINews is a pleasure in itself for me, I do find digital processing a fun thing to try to understand...)

Again, with HI-Res I've certainly heard pleasurable gains from native (not upsampled) 24-bit files; nice to have, yes. Night and day, not usually. On one recording, the Bartok Piano Concertos with Bavouzet/Noseda (Chandos), I was delighted at how the 24-bit file came to life, after initially buying the lossless one and finding it a bit dead, acoustically. That Studio 7 acoustic does seem to benefit from 24/96 more than most. HIFiNews has been analysing some of these releases monthly (not the Bartok though!) for a couple of years now to see if they ARE native or upsampled. Useful!

My last sentence was meant to imply that I only want a friendly and knowledgeable discussion - I don't think you have low standards, I'm baffled why you should think that. (A superb, earlier all-AVI system is the one I've heard most after my own - If you have AVI Anything you've gone much further than most!). I do seem to run into trouble on this forum rather often... I just like to share knowledge really, and try to be true to what I hear, but technically truthful and accurate too. But I feel I often get ignored or misunderstood (on music threads anyway), and probably end up a bit defensive sometimes. Sorry.

Now do as you're told - get back to those AVIs and enjoy your music!

[Pianoman]

This thread is fairly typical of how many others have gone on other forums - you either like box- swapping and trying new amps, sources whatever, or you go the active route and (generally) seem happy enough to leave it at that. AVI have always made excellent products, but Ashley has decided that active is the future for most music lovers, and whilst I am still passive :) I fully intend to get Adm9 s in time, especially as you have the dac and pre included. They go loud without distorting and that's enough for my old ears !!

[johnb]

In this discussion of active speakers no one has mentioned Meridian, who have been building active speakers for many, many years. They are, of course, designed to work with Meridian systems but I have read of them being successfully paired with the Squeezebox Touch. They are pretty pricey, but I understand the older DSP5000.2 can be picked up SH for £1500 to £2000 - not exactly bargain basement but considerably less than the current models.

I can't say anything about their performance as I haven't owned any.

[Beef Oven]

In this discussion of active speakers no one has mentioned Meridian, who have been building active speakers for many, many years. They are, of course, designed to work with Meridian systems but I have read of them being successfully paired with the Squeezebox Touch. They are pretty pricey, but I understand the older DSP5000.2 can be picked up SH for £1500 to £2000 - not exactly bargain basement but considerably less than the current models.

I can't say anything about their performance as I haven't owned any.

Not sure Naim have been discussed either.

[Nevalti]

I'm not sure why an owner of a pair of active speakers would have any need to change anything? One of the many advantages of active speakers is that the designer can match the amplifiers to the drive units.

That is exactly the same as saying that a Sanyo/Sansui/Hitachi/Amstrad/Kenwood/etc 'music centre' has been designed to work together and the designer has matched the amplifier to the drive units. Well of course he has, but how good a job has he/she done? How much were they restrained by budget & profit motives?

How much indeed were you restrained by budget motives? How happy are you with the digital amplifier hidden away in your speakers? Have you ever heard the delights of a good valve amplifier or the realistic dynamics of a good powerful solid state amp? Are you SURE you will be happy with your active speakers once you have heard a much better system? Because, if you are not happy, your options are to put up with them or dispose of them. There is no upgrade route. If you move house, they will sound different in their new home - that is the reason for several equipment changes on my part; my system simply would not sound right with a changed structure. A 1,500 cuft room is very, very different from a 2,000 cuft room. Plasterboard walls are very different from solid, plastered walls etc, etc.

Some active speakers cost £30,000+ and are undoubtedly better than most of what I have ever heard or owned but even PMC (who make studio equipment as well as domestic) will readily tell you that you will get better sound, for the money, by using their passive speakers and separate amplifiers. They openly admit that their built-in digital amplifiers are not as good. I tried them and I agree. Modern digital amplifiers, such as are in virtually all active speakers, are incredibly good (I own three superb digital amps for low level listening in other rooms) but they simply are not as good at handling the high power you need to drive many speakers to the realistic volume of an orchestra etc. You really can't expect a tea-cup sized amp to provide the same power as dozens of musicians blowing, bowing, thumping, plucking or singing. The laws of physics cuts in here. IF however, you only listen to simple music, played quietly, you (and I) may well be very satisfied with your active speakers. Some of us would not be because we like to listen to a wide range of music at realistic volumes some of the time.

With the "traditional" approach, amplifier matching is left to the end-user, which seems a bit "primitive" IMHO. :)

Without wishing to insult anyone, it strikes me as far more 'primitive' and more than a little naive to buy something off the shelf on trust that the designer knew what he was doing and that it will sound 'as good as it gets'. Your ears are the only measuring instrument that counts and we all have our preferences when it comes to sound. At concerts I find the sound at around row 'M' to be about right for my enjoyment but some people actually prefer to sit right at the front or way back from the orchestra. Fair enough, that is their choice BUT their choice of HiFi, to get 'realism', will need to be completely different from each other and from me. So, where do you choose to sit? And where does your chosen designer choose to sit? Did you ask him? My (limited) experience of active speakers is that they place you right at the front, standing on a chair just behind the conductor; that always sounds very odd to me.

[Nevalti]

..........alogue input? Perhaps there's no need for a pre-amp if there's only one input source.

Ah yes..... pre-amps! For the benefit of the OP, it may be worth noting here that the use of pre-amps is becoming very questionable these days.

Unless you have analogue sources (tape player, FM tuner, LP, etc) you are probably better off without one. Many people just use a DAC with all the switching and volume control that they need. There are a few excellent DACs out there that also accept analogue signals specifically so that you don't need a pre-amp.

Pre-amps were traditionally needed for impedance matching. Back in the days of wildly different specifications, they were essential. For many years now however most equipment has 'standard' specs and a pre-amp is often just adding an 'unnecessary' component in the chain - when ideally you want as short a chain possible from source to sound. You should try to manipulate the signal as little as possible and only with high quality components. That short chain is one of the benefits of active speakers of course - not that I would 'actively' encourage anyone to go down that particular route.


(In case some clever person recalls that I do use a pre-amp, I do have a very good reason for doing so.)