I'm Looking to Upgrade My Current Sound System

[Dave2002]

jayne

You may well be right. I do think it's worth checking for input overload though - I have definitely seen and heard this recently, and not just with my equipment. If people wire things together without care it's easy to do. I realised after my previous post that the clipping could also be coming from the amp just running out of "steam". It might be possible to improve things with a better power supply, but I might have to bite the bullet and get a much more powerful amp.

Years ago I knew some people who had measured the dynamic range of some very old recordings (talking 78s and acoustic here ...). They discovered that the dynamic range was so wide that to get good quality, even on such old recordings, needed the equivalent of a 400 Watt amplifier - IIRC.

[teamsaint]

I think the answer is to invite Dave 2K+2, JLW, or one of the others round for a nice glass of wine, and get them to sort it out !!

Mine process would probably start with a trip to an upstairs window with my current gear.....

Still love this thread. Still don't understand it.
But I miss those old "Comet" listings from the late 70's !!

[jayne lee wilson]

jayne

You may well be right. I do think it's worth checking for input overload though - I have definitely seen and heard this recently, and not just with my equipment. If people wire things together without care it's easy to do. I realised after my previous post that the clipping could also be coming from the amp just running out of "steam". It might be possible to improve things with a better power supply, but I might have to bite the bullet and get a much more powerful amp.

Years ago I knew some people who had measured the dynamic range of some very old recordings (talking 78s and acoustic here ...). They discovered that the dynamic range was so wide that to get good quality, even on such old recordings, needed the equivalent of a 400 Watt amplifier - IIRC.

Absolutely - Keith Howard did a series of articles for HiFiNews about 10 years ago where he measured the demands of various recordings (It may be archived somewhere...). IIRC, with a Schumann Symphony the average power drawn was about 25 watts, but on a given climax it was around 250! With operatic solos, sopranos especially, it can be even greater. The difference can be surprising, not to say alarming!

[amateur51]

I think the answer is to invite Dave 2K+2, JLW, or one of the others round for a nice glass of wine, and get them to sort it out !!

Mine process would probably start with a trip to an upstairs window with my current gear.....

Still love this thread. Still don't understand it.
But I miss those old "Comet" listings from the late 70's !!

Agreed it was a wonderful airliner

[teamsaint]

Agreed it was a wonderful airliner

first plane i ever went on.
Good old Dan Air.
Holidays have never been the same since they went pop !!

[Dave2002]

Agreed it was a wonderful airliner

I always did fancy flying in one - but never did.

[Dave2002]

Absolutely - Keith Howard did a series of articles for HiFiNews about 10 years ago where he measured the demands of various recordings (It may be archived somewhere...). IIRC, with a Schumann Symphony the average power drawn was about 25 watts, but on a given climax it was around 250! With operatic solos, sopranos especially, it can be even greater. The difference can be surprising, not to say alarming!

Is there something not quite right in this? Pop enthusiasts play the "music" loud, but often it doesn't have a great dynamic range. Do they just accept high levels of distortion all the time? OTOH classical enthusiasts listen to music which mostly doesn't require very high powers to sound reasonable, but with peaks such that the distortion even on some seemingly high powered amps will produce objectionable and easily identifiable distortion.

There used to be interest in loudspeakers with high sensitivity, and clearly such speakers if they are otherwise good may have considerable advantages in providing "headroom" at high levels. A couple of arguments for using less sensitive speakers may be that they may be easier to damp, thus avoiding ringing and resonances which overshoot, and also that it might be possible to get a flatter frequency response. I don't think there is sufficient consensus yet about speaker sensitivity. Some highly sensitive ones still are well damped and have good frequency responses, while I'm sure that some less sensitive ones may fail both in damping/resonance and frequency response characteristics.

[jayne lee wilson]

Is there something not quite right in this? Pop enthusiasts play the "music" loud, but often it doesn't have a great dynamic range. Do they just accept high levels of distortion all the time? OTOH classical enthusiasts listen to music which mostly doesn't require very high powers to sound reasonable, but with peaks such that the distortion even on some seemingly high powered amps will produce objectionable and easily identifiable distortion.

There used to be interest in loudspeakers with high sensitivity, and clearly such speakers if they are otherwise good may have considerable advantages in providing "headroom" at high levels. A couple of arguments for using less sensitive speakers may be that they may be easier to damp, thus avoiding ringing and resonances which overshoot, and also that it might be possible to get a flatter frequency response. I don't think there is sufficient consensus yet about speaker sensitivity. Some highly sensitive ones still are well damped and have good frequency responses, while I'm sure that some less sensitive ones may fail both in damping/resonance and frequency response characteristics.

There's not really anything wrong in this... the AVERAGE power drawn from an amplifier, even on a pulsating Rock track, needn't be very high; if you think of Schumann 2 finale motoring along at 25 watts, a louder but dynamically unvarying pop song won't draw a lot more. The only reason an amp might overload in those circumstances is very prolonged use at parties etc. It will overheat very gradually. No, it really is all about those "high peaks", especially those very sustained, densely midrange ones, which were my undoing in that Beethoven 7 trio....
I borrowed a pair of Kelly KT2 speakers (95db sensitivity), to use with those 60 watt monoblocks... long story short, one of the speakers blew up under the strain of that very trio - the tweeter went. Why? An HFN review later revealed a wicked midrange dip in the speaker's impedance, a broad "dish" of 4 ohms or so. Very demanding. Classical is mainly in that midrange and given bridged stereo power amps, the amps were probably seeing about 2 ohms! And couldn't deal with it.

The devil really is in the detail - when I tried the ATC ASL 50 Speakers here, there was simply no limit to their dynamic ability, and no change to their balance as the level rose. But they're a bit insensitive - they needed a higher volume than I was comfortable with to "come out of the box". Amp and room could take it, ears couldn't (bank balance very relieved). But you never forget them. They put you "right there", in the hall or studio. One of the Sibelius tone poems on Vanska's BIS CD of them was like a great wave, sweeping you from your chair! But the ears couldn't cope (if you're approaching concert hall levels, best to have a concert hall to listen in) so back they went.

[Beef Oven]

There's not really anything wrong in this... the AVERAGE power drawn from an amplifier, even on a pulsating Rock track, needn't be very high; if you think of Schumann 2 finale motoring along at 25 watts, a louder but dynamically unvarying pop song won't draw a lot more. The only reason an amp might overload in those circumstances is very prolonged use at parties etc. It will overheat very gradually. No, it really is all about those "high peaks", especially those very sustained, densely midrange ones, which were my undoing in that Beethoven 7 trio....
I borrowed a pair of Kelly KT2 speakers (95db sensitivity), to use with those 60 watt monoblocks... long story short, one of the speakers blew up under the strain of that very trio - the tweeter went. Why? An HFN reveiw revealed a wicked midrange dip in the speaker's impedance, a broad "dish" of 4 ohms or so. Very demanding. Classical is mainly in that midrange and given bridged stereo power amps, the amps were probably seeing about 2 ohms! And couldn't deal with it.

The devil really is in the detail - when I tried the ATC ASL 50 Speakers here, there was simply no limit to their dynamic ability, and no change to their balance as the level rose. But they're a bit insensitive - they needed a higher volume than I was comfortable with to "come out of the box". Amp and room could take it, ears couldn't (bank balance very relieved). But you never forget them. One of the Sibelius tone poems on Vanska's BIS CD of them was like a great wave, sweeping you from your chair! But the ears couldn't cope (if you're going after concert hall levels, best to have a concert hall to listen in) so back they went.

What did you do with your coy of 'Deep Purple In Rock'? Did that just pop-along like Schumann 2?

[jayne lee wilson]

What did you do with your coy of 'Deep Purple In Rock'? Did that just pop-along like Schumann 2?

Ha! No, I only played that masterpiece on my Dad's system so I've no idea how it coped. Didn't blow up though...(shame!)

[Dave2002]

No, it really is all about those "high peaks", especially those very sustained, densely midrange ones, which were my undoing in that Beethoven 7 trio....
I borrowed a pair of Kelly KT2 speakers (95db sensitivity), to use with those 60 watt monoblocks... long story short, one of the speakers blew up under the strain of that very trio - the tweeter went. Why? An HFN review later revealed a wicked midrange dip in the speaker's impedance, a broad "dish" of 4 ohms or so. Very demanding. Classical is mainly in that midrange and given bridged stereo power amps, the amps were probably seeing about 2 ohms! And couldn't deal with it.

I'm not totally convinced about the power arguments, particularly for pop/rock music but ... I'll come back to that later.

Re blowing up the KT2s - did you also brick the amplifier, or did that recover after intensive care?

[jayne lee wilson]

I'm not totally convinced about the power arguments, particularly for pop/rock music but ... I'll come back to that later.

Re blowing up the KT2s - did you also brick the amplifier, or did that recover after intensive care?

One amp blew, one tweeter... so I could at least run the other as a stereo amp into the old faithful Wharfedale 505.2s.
Not enough time to tell you what happened when I rang the shop, maybe later... hope there's some salad left in Sainsburys!

[Dave2002]

One amp blew, one tweeter... so I could at least run the other as a stereo amp into the old faithful Wharfedale 505.2s.
Not enough time to tell you what happened when I rang the shop, maybe later... hope there's some salad left in Sainsburys!

Ouch!

Good luck with the lettuce!

[Beef Oven]

One amp blew, one tweeter... so I could at least run the other as a stereo amp into the old faithful Wharfedale 505.2s.
Not enough time to tell you what happened when I rang the shop, maybe later... hope there's some salad left in Sainsburys!

Wharfdale 505.2! Classic! What a great speaker? Good price too

[Resurrection Man]

He's my best friend.

Now that's what I call a 'woofer' ....sorry, coat...get!