I'm Looking to Upgrade My Current Sound System

[Beef Oven]

Take care BMW.
I am as baffled as you by most of these posts.
I just use a cd player,i pod,computer,radio and a set of headphones.

How many ears you got? Surely it's a pair of headphones

[Phileas]

There's far more evidence against this than for it

I'd like to see some of this evidence. :)

Anyway, I don't want to spoil this thread with this particular debate - I'm sure the main points have been covered elsewhere.

[teamsaint]

How many ears you got? Surely it's a pair of headphones

2 for him, 2 for Harry.

Set.

[amateur51]

2 for him, 2 for Harry.

Set.

clever!

[EdgeleyRob]

2 for him, 2 for Harry.

Set.

Exactly

[Beef Oven]

Exactly

Who is Harry?

[jayne lee wilson]

I'd like to see some of this evidence. :)

Anyway, I don't want to spoil this thread with this particular debate - I'm sure the main points have been covered elsewhere.

The best evidence is - listening. Music lovers, writers, thousands of listeners who make choices. If all DACs really did sound the same, or if it were easy to make a "perfect one" - musically and technically - why would anyone bother designing them now? We'd all have bought into this effortless choice years ago. The same DAC will of course sound different in different rooms, not to mention ears!

The Tivoli Model One is a mono FM Radio/amp, the first in a range which has grown like topsy since I bought the "One" in 2001. I use it with the Tivoli CD, both in the very attractive Walnut/off-white design. Like a pair of housebricks, it's about the only neat thing in the bedroom. CDs sound rather good in mono. I once used a pair of Tivoli Model Ones as the sound output for a Flatscreen TV, one per channel - sounded great, but that's another story! (Main problem was two manual volume controls...)

[EdgeleyRob]

Who is Harry?

He's my best friend.

[jayne lee wilson]

He'd look REALLY wonderful in 'phones! But would he... can you...?

Just a link to a great article about listening, hifi, tests, sonic differences etc. Sorry if you saw it last time we did this...

https://stereophile.com/asweseeit/705awsi

[Beef Oven]

He's my best friend.

Doh! Of course! How did I forget

Lovely photo

[pastoralguy]

He'd look REALLY wonderful in 'phones! But would he... can you...?

Just a link to a great article about listening, hifi, tests, sonic differences etc. Sorry if you saw it last time we did this...
stereophile.com/asweseeit/705awsi

Thank you for that link, Jayne. Very interesting.

[Dave2002]

This thread has got me thinking about sound quality all over again. I think many of us may be putting up with poor quality by not paying attention.

1. Using mp3 or other compressed audio. This isn't necessarily very bad, though probably not the ultimate either. There was definitely a time when many mp3s were done using too low a bit rate, and the results were awful. In the relatively early days some people (myself included) deliberately listened to low bit rate mp3s so as to try to figure out what the artefacts sound like. Certainly up to over 192 kbps I could notice them, but above that they were less obvious.

2. Possibly the reason why some mp3s and other digital compressed audio doesn't sound so good nowadays is simply that the compression is done badly. A properly done 320kbps mp3 or 256 kbps aac file might sound indistinguishable from a CD played on a good system.

3. I spent some time this morning listening to a few pieces - Wagner - Thielemann mp3 download, and Bax symphonies - also an mp3 download. I tried two different input modes to my DAC - one via the USB link, the other via SPDIF. Arguably the SPDIF version should sound better, as the DAC only operates at 16 bits via USB. I couldn't say there was much difference.

After a while I got fed up with listening to Bax, so thought I'd try Wagner on CD, so I dug out an EMI highlights disc. Immediately the sound was better, but also there is a problem. Using the DAC fed through to a modest amp it sounded good at (for this amp) high volume - but there are hints of distortion on the voices and brass instruments. OK - bright sparks would say overload distortion - but really not perhaps where you'd expect it.

To get overload distortion on a powerful amp (mine isn't that powerful) they normally have to be run at high power. Most people who value their hearing probably won't test for this, and won't know if it happens.

I rewired the DAC to function as a pre-amp - with the volume control to turn down the input. Now the distortion largely disappears, but the sound level is too low.

This suggests:

4. Input overload distortion. The output of my DAC overloads the amplifier.

To check further I listened to the CD on headphones through the headphone output of my DAC, and this way the volume can be high (too high!) and the distortion is not very significant.
Conclusion - the problem is not (mainly) with the CD or the CD player.

Owners of integrated amps either won't get this, or won't be able to do anything about this form of distortion, unless they really do overload the input. If there's enough amplification an attenuator on the input will reduce/eliminate this problem.

I'm a bit stuck with this, as I don't think there's enough amplification to get reasonable levels with an attenuated input.

I suspect that many people have little idea of what they're listening to, and where the problems lie. I do have other amplifiers, but none that solve all the problems. Time for a rethink I guess. Maybe have to get my credit card out too!

One other form of distortion is crossover distortion in the amplifier. Probably most of us don't have a great idea what this sounds like - and a new amplifier which is well set up shouldn't have much. Amplifiers can drift off over time, so this could creep in.

It'd be good if there were a source of examples of different forms of distortion. The "standard" forms of distortion - frequency distortion, harmonic distortion and intermodulation distortion might not be recognised by many, unless severe. Clipping is the most obvious, wherever it occurs.

[BWV 988]

Thanks Dave,

I may have misunderstood but from your comment I take it even with a good system there are still things that can interfere with the sound, something I did not expect.

[Dave2002]

Thanks Dave,

I may have misunderstood but from your comment I take it even with a good system there are still things that can interfere with the sound, something I did not expect.

Depends what you get, but yes - it's possible to have several perfectly good units - e.g a good amp or pair of amps, a good pre-amp, a good CD player and a good pair of loudspeakers. Wire them all together - even with good wire - and if they don't match up properly the results can still be poor. A certain amount of sensible matching and tweaking is required.

Integrated amps may avoid some of the problems I've mentioned, though then you are relying on the manufacturer making a high quality product. Using separate pre-amps (and that may make sense with the budget you are looking at) might mean that you need to match the pre-amp to the amp. If the same manufacturer should work, otherwise might have to use an attenuator or some other matching device.

Your room is small enough too - but with large rooms and long cable runs there can also be issues with loudspeakers matching to amps. Doesn't matter for short runs. Similarly long signal cable runs should be avoided.

[jayne lee wilson]

Dave 2002 - does the distortion occur on peaks, especially voices? Pianos too? It doesn't have to be hugely loud to happen. This plagued me for many years, until I found out that the "peak current" available in an amp - that extra power to deal with climaxes - is way more crucial than average power; yet it can often be hard to find out about it from spec sheets - a good review should cover it. When I ran QED amps, two bridged P300s, they couldn't deal with the trio of Beethoven's 7th played loud. These were 60watts average, with about 15 amps peak current available. A dealer lent me an MF A3 integrated, 115watts avge., 15-20 amps peak... better sound ,but no more power!
It took a monoblock with 25 amps+ (the MF X-A200s, big cylindrical things) to cope comfortably. You usually find higher power amps do have more current drive, but do check it carefully. I have seen 50 watters with healthy amounts of current - and it usually works - but it is unusual.

It was actually this problem, and the failure of dealers, most of whom didn't bother with classical (huge dynamic contrasts&demands, unlike rock/pop), to understand it, which led me to become "the reluctant audiophile"...

With lossy codecs - yes, the quality of processing does matter, but I've found that 320kbps AAC is as low as I can go (and still enjoy it).

***crossed in the posts! I think input overload is a bit of a red herring, all that is happening is the available volume gets used up fast due to the input sensitivity - i.e. way too loud at 9'o'clock! Peaks distort as the power is used up. Attenuators give you more range with the volume but don't solve the power problem. I have an attenuator on my preamp - I don't strictly need it or use it, but I always feel that any attenuation robs the sound of some vitality and detail.