I'm Looking to Upgrade My Current Sound System

[Guest]

Hello Everyone,

I apologize if this thread slightly overlaps with the SACD player thread.

I am ill and my condition has deteriorated recently. As a result of various things music has become more important to me. Lately I've bought a number of recordings, my collection has grown from nothing to 400 -500 CDs (if you include boxed sets).

I use a computer and a nice pair of headphones to listen to the radio/music (not a great sound system I know ). I've never owned a CD player or Hi-Fi but would now like to purchase a sound system? If that's the correct term, I'm not sure where to start or what I need to be looking for.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I'd also be interesting I knowing how you listen to your music?

BWV 988

[Beef Oven]

Hello Everyone,

I apologize if this thread slightly overlaps with the SACD player thread.

I am ill and my condition has deteriorated recently. As a result of various things music has become more important to me. Lately I've bought a number of recordings, my collection has grown from nothing to 400 -500 CDs (if you include boxed sets).

I use a computer and a nice pair of headphones to listen to the radio/music (not a great sound system I know ). I've never owned a CD player or Hi-Fi but would now like to purchase a sound system? If that's the correct term, I'm not sure where to start or what I need to be looking for.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I'd also be interesting I knowing how you listen to your music?

BWV 988

Hi BWV

I'm sure that you'll get lots of good advice, lots of clued-up people in here.

I've changed the way I listen to music over the past few years. I've gone from a Hi-Fi separates system to a laptop/headphones/active speakers set up.

I tend to listen 'near-field' these days and plan on replacing my current active speakers with a pair of Genelecs. http://www.genelec.com/home-audio/

[DracoM]

Budget is critical, because your options are actually massive.
1. Good amplifier - personally I'd make this my most expensive purchase.
2. Good CD player
3. Good digital / AM tuner

OR
Ruark kit?
Bose kit i.e. their small unit + speakers. Other more techie people will have details.

What sort of space do you have for new kit? i.e. what size of kit do you want? i.e small components, or is there a huge room to fill?

So budget and available space come pretty early in the calculations. I know that sounds stupidly obvious, but the choice on the market is so enormous that some ab initio parameters have to be established in YOUR mind before any advice coming in can be assessed.

[BWV 988]

Hi BWV

I'm sure that you'll get lots of good advice, lots of clued-up people in here.

I've changed the way I listen to music over the past few years. I've gone from a Hi-Fi separates system to a laptop/headphones/active speakers set up.

I tend to listen 'near-field' these days and plan on replacing my current active speakers with a pair of Genelecs. http://www.genelec.com/home-audio/

I'm afraid you've lost me I will need to do some research before I can reply properly. Those speakers do look very nice though. :)

Budget is critical, because your options are actually massive.
1. Good amplifier - personally I'd make this my most expensive purchase.
2. Good CD player
3. Good digital / AM tuner

OR
Ruark kit?
Bose kit i.e. their small unit + speakers. Other more techie people will have details.

What sort of space do you have for new kit? i.e. what size of kit do you want? i.e small components, or is there a huge room to fill?

So budget and available space come pretty early in the calculations. I know that sounds stupidly obvious, but the choice on the market is so enormous that some ab initio parameters have to be established in YOUR mind before any advice coming in can be assessed.

I had looked at Ruark Audio they have a new system coming out later this year. However I think I'd prefer a modular system that I could add to.

Budget £2000 - £5000 I think I'd be comfortable with that. Size wise I have a small room I'd like to use not sure how big it is perhaps 12 feet by 12 feet maybe slightly larger.

Thank you both for the advice. :)

[Dave2002]

I seem to have attempted to answer this question elsewhere recently. I'm very sorry to hear about your illness.

Do you have space, and do you live with anyone else? What kind of budget do you have? Do you want to play your music loud?
Do you only like classical music, or do you also want to play heavy metal, or other types of music?

Headphones can be very good if you like them, and you might find a decent headphone amplifier would improve that experience quite a lot. Some headphones don't work at all well without a decent headphone amplifier.

Since you already have CDs there are a few obvious routes.

1. Buy a CD player.
2. Use a DVD or Blu Ray or SACD player as a CD player.
3. Buy a DAC to use with your computer, and either play the CDs through the computer, or rip them to computer memory and play from there.

You may also want equipment to be in different rooms - e.g computer/disc drives in one room, and listening kit in another. This is likely to require some form of networking - possibly wired, maybe wireless.

Traditionally people bought amplifiers and connected speakers, but some people like to have powered speakers which include an amplifier internally. I think there are even some which have wireless network connections. These are fairly new developments.

If your budget is modest, stores such as Richer Sounds will probably have equipment which will serve you well enough. Some enthusiasts recommend second hand kit purchased from eBay, but I think you have to have some knowledge to make that work. The theory is that gear which might have cost £1k to £10k a decade ago will now cost anything from £10-£1k, and even allowing for any possible improvements due to modern developments, it will still sound a lot better than similarly priced equpment bought today. OTOH some older kit may simply become clapped out, so that strategy doesn't always work, and there are other hidden snags in buying second hand from eBay, such as buying equipment from someone living in a house with smokers. It is possible to get perfectly functioning equipment, but which is intolerable to have on because of the smell from the ingrained cigarette tars.

Maybe that'll be enough to get the ball rolling.

[Beef Oven]

I'm afraid you've lost me I will need to do some research before I can reply properly. Those speakers do look very nice though. :)

Sorry for not being clear.

What I mean is that I listen to music less on my living room system (Naim) and more at my desk while I am multi-tasking. I play music on my laptop from my iTunes library or CD tray.

The speakers are on my desk, no more than a few feet away.

[BWV 988]

Sorry for not being clear.

What I mean is that I listen to music less on my living room system (Naim) and more at my desk while I am multi-tasking. I play music on my laptop from my iTunes library or CD tray.

The speakers are on my desk, no more than a few feet away.

It's quite alright, this is how I have listened to music most of my life but due to the issues I mentioned before long sessions at a computer are less comfortable. I understand the advantages of a computer based system though what with multitasking etc.

I seem to have attempted to answer this question elsewhere recently. I'm very sorry to hear about your illness.

Do you have space, and do you live with anyone else? What kind of budget do you have? Do you want to play your music loud?
Do you only like classical music, or do you also want to play heavy metal, or other types of music?

Headphones can be very good if you like them, and you might find a decent headphone amplifier would improve that experience quite a lot. Some headphones don't work at all well without a decent headphone amplifier.

Since you already have CDs there are a few obvious routes.

1. Buy a CD player.
2. Use a DVD or Blu Ray or SACD player as a CD player.
3. Buy a DAC to use with your computer, and either play the CDs through the computer, or rip them to computer memory and play from there.

You may also want equipment to be in different rooms - e.g computer/disc drives in one room, and listening kit in another. This is likely to require some form of networking - possibly wired, maybe wireless.

Traditionally people bought amplifiers and connected speakers, but some people like to have powered speakers which include an amplifier internally. I think there are even some which have wireless network connections. These are fairly new developments.

If your budget is modest, stores such as Richer Sounds will probably have equipment which will serve you well enough. Some enthusiasts recommend second hank kit purchased from eBay, but I think you have to have some knowledge to make that work. The theory is that gear which might have cost £1k to £10k a decade ago will now cost anything from £10-£1k, and even allowing for any possible improvements due to modern developments, it will still sound a lot better than similarly priced equpment bought today. OTOH some older kit may simply become clapped out, so that strategy doesn't always work, and there are other hidden snags in buying second hand from eBay, such as buying equipment from someone living in a house with smokers. It is possible to get perfectly functioning equipment, but which is intolerable to have on because of the smell from the ingrained cigarette tars.

Maybe that'll be enough to get the ball rolling.

Thank you very much for your concern. :) I think I answered a lot of your questions in a previous post but if you would like more detail please let me know.

As for space we have loads of space so that's not really an issue and a headphone amp does look attractive and they are not that expensive it seems.

[Beef Oven]

It's quite alright, this is how I have listened to music most of my life but due to the issues I mentioned before long sessions at a computer are less comfortable. I understand the advantages of a computer based system though what with multitasking etc.






Thank you very much for your concern. :) I think I answered a lot of your questions in a previous post but if you would like more detail please let me know.

As for space we have loads of space so that's not really an issue and a headphone amp does look attractive and they are not that expensive it seems.

With 5k and plenty of space, you've almost got too much choice!!

I did not pick up on your health issue - I wish you all the best in managing your condition.

[jayne lee wilson]

Hi BMW, sorry BWV - nice line in avatars, btw -

Do you have a good, specialised HIFi dealer nearby? If so then 1) decide on a budget 2) do some basic planning about how and where you want to listen (i.e., headphones or speakers, large speakers or small according to room size etc.). Then talk to the dealer about your approach & what you might need.

Take your time, but don't be afraid to spend it if you've got it - quality does tend to match price... if budget is tight, always put the source (SACD, CD, Server etc) first - amps and speakers can only work with what they're fed. If you listen to R3 a lot, the best quality is found via the "HDs" feed on the R3 homepage or via iTunes. But you should feed this to a DAC/processor, not listen to the computer's own analogue output. DAB isn't very good for classical, FM sounds lovely but has very compressed dynamics (i.e. not much power in climaxes, not very quiet pps).

But - as DracoM said, choice is huge, and a good dealer can be a great help. Try one if you have one around. But first, think carefully about how, when and where you want to listen. Ease of use and access is very important.

** just noticed your budget - not a bad start! You really should find a dealer and work out with them what you want to do. PM me if you want more - I've dealt with a few dealers round the country and might know them as recommendable or not...

My own listening breaks down to CDs, Downloads (cd quality/hi-res) or R3 webstream, all via a DAC connected to the HiFi.

[BWV 988]

Thanks Beef Oven. :)

Hi BMW, sorry BWV - nice line in avatars, btw -

Do you have a good, specialised HIFi dealer nearby? If so then 1) decide on a budget 2) do some basic planning about how and where you want to listen (i.e., headphones or speakers, large speakers or small according to room size etc.). Then talk to the dealer about your approach & what you might need.

Take your time, but don't be afraid to spend it if you've got it - quality does tend to match price... if budget is tight, always put the source (SACD, CD, Server etc) first - amps and speakers can only work with what they're fed. If you listen to R3 a lot, the best quality is found via the "HDs" feed on the R3 homepage or via iTunes. But you should feed this to a DAC/processor, not listen to the computer's own analogue output. DAB isn't very good for classical, FM sounds lovely but has very compressed dynamics (i.e. not much power in climaxes, not very quiet pps).

But - as DracoM said, choice is huge, and a good dealer can be a great help. Try one if you have one around. But first, think carefully about how, when and where you want to listen. Ease of use and access is very important.

Thanks for your comment Jayne. I don't want to come off as the most pathetic person on the forum but due to reasons beyond my control I'm stuck in the house for the foreseeable future so getting to a store would be an issue.

I am a new listener when it comes to radio 3 I came over from internet radio in an attempt to spend less time on my computer/laptop.

I don't much care about what the source is although I had envisioned using both Lossless files and CDs I'm not sure if that's possible. I had no idea DAB wasn't great for classical music I had planned on purchasing a small DAB radio do you think I should avoid it?

Thank you again. :)


I apologize to everyone for bringing my personal problems onto the forum I feel rather embarrassed now.

[Nick Armstrong]

I apologize to everyone for bringing my personal problems onto the forum I feel rather embarrassed now.

I wouldn't, for a moment! Quite a few Forumites have health issues of one kind or another, and mention them quite freely, and there is a good level of support and of course lots of virtual tea and sympathy! I'm useless at the sort of techno/HiFi info you need, but as you illustrated above, knowing what limitations there are, is very germane to providing useful responses!

I too am sorry you're in the wars - but glad that music is providing a source of enjoyment / distraction / even compensation for being confined to quarters.

[jayne lee wilson]

Please don't be embarrassed - I and others have mentioned our own health problems many times on here!

You know, a good dealer should be happy to come to you and a home demo is always best anyway. If you find one, give 'em a call...most of them are well up-to-speed with Computer Music now.

It's tricky about DAB. It may sound OK on a portable but FM with good reception will always sound better - fuller, more "musical". Simply because DAB runs on a bitrate-reduced, rather dated, mp2 codec. With a good broadband connection that HDs 320 kbps AAC stream on R3 is far better. Still plenty of models doing FM and DAB though.

Lossless files (or any downloads) will have to be stored somewhere. If you use Network Attached Storage, plugged into HiFi or broadband router they'll still need to be organised and played back via a screen of some sort - i.e. laptop, iPad etc. A streaming device in the HiFi usually has a small display, but that makes it tricky to use, at a distance from your chair! It is simpler to store them on the laptop and play them directly into the system from there, via optical/usb into a DAC.

[Dave2002]

Others have already noted your budget. You should be able to get several good systems with that, or one excellent one. I don't fully agree with Jayne about buying the best source, and indeed I think the strategy goes against a more traditional one, which used to put loudspeakers first. She is right that if the source is not good enough it will always limit the SQ, but equally if the loudspeakers are not good enough, then it won't matter how good the other equipment is, the results will always be limited by the speakers.

I was assuming that most of your music would be from CDs and downloads, though there are other possibilities. You might, for example want to have a Blu Ray compatible system. There are some music releases based on Blu Ray (e.g Universal's High Fidelity Pure Audio), and if you go that route would you perhaps also want to have the capability to watch video and maybe also listen to multi- channel sound. SACD players are also a possibility, and again the possibility of multi-channel crops up. SACD plsyers may give better SQ, though not everyone agrees, and you might find it helpful to listen to some SACDs through a good player, and cqmpare with the equivalent CDs. It's not quite a simple comparison though, as the audio mix can be different so one is not quite comparing like with like. That said, the SACD version should often sound smoother.

Since you have a lot of CDs already though, I would suggest that chasing Blu Ray audio is likely to limit what music you can listen to, and could be a very expensive way of acquiring music, though the tracks should be high quality. SACD players are compatible with CDs (indeed most Blu Ray players are, too), and there is a large enough base of SACD issues for that to be of interest. However, the widest range of music available is currently on CD, and as you have notcied there are box set releases. These often offer a lot of music at low prices - typically around £1-2 per CD - e.g EMI's Great Opera boxes for Verdi and Wagner.

There aren't many (any?) players which are compatible with all disc formats - CD, DVD, SACD, Blu Ray, DVD Audio. Possibly Oppo might have one which does all the most common ones. Generally a good dedicated CD player will give better SQ than a general purpose DVD player, for example, though nowadays many more DVD and Blu Ray players are sold than dedicated CD players. Most decent CD (and DVD, Blu Ray) players have some form of digital out these days. This can be used to drive an external DAC or AV amp. Digital multi-channel output rqeally requires an HDMI out, but 2 channel can use optical or electrical digital outputs as well - e.g Toslink/SPDIF. Older equipment may only have analogue outputs. Coupled with appropriate kit this can still give very good results - though there might be a lot of wires

Your room proportions seem very square. Do you also have high ceilings? The dimensions might limit the sound quality you can achieve, though that's a problem with most rooms. Cube shaped rooms will tend to have pronounced resonances, and a small room might not really work well for low frequencies. Having said that, it might still be possible to get good results - you'll need to try the speakers in your room. A good dealer should be willing to let you try some. There can be a very big perceptual difference between different speakers. I'm not up to date on speakers, though there are some obvious tests. For example, there is a recording of Wagner's Flying Dutchman by Keilberth. It's quite an old recoeding. If you listen on speakers with a very extended bass response you'll hear the singers jumping up and down on the stage in the Sailors' Chorus. You won't even notice on speakers with a limited bass range.

Also compare speakers with 2 drive units with 3 or 4 drive unit speakers. I have an LP of Rodrigo music where playing on speakers with 2 drive units sounds OK, but on speakers with 3 drives more instruments appear. There is one trumpet entry which goes completely unnoticed on a 2 drive system.

There are compromises to be made though. Sometimes the more detailed sound from a 3 drive system may give a more nasal sound. Some people may prefer less detail to avoid the nasal sound. Bass extension can also give problems due to resonances - which may come from the speakers or the room, or both. Boxy or boomy effects get very tirinng, and should be avoided. Sometimes this can be fixed by furnishings - carpets, curtains etc. but some kit just may not work well in your room.

Oh, if you have neighbours, they may not like it if you acquire a system with extended bass response!

[Beef Oven]

Others have already noted your budget. You should be able to get several good systems with that, or one excellent one. I don't fully agree with Jayne about buying the best source, and indeed I think the strategy goes against a more traditional one, which used to put loudspeakers first. She is right that if the source is not good enough it will always limit the SQ, but equally if the loudspeakers are not good enough, then it won't matter how good the other equipment is, the results will always be limited by the speakers.

I was assuming that most of your music would be from CDs and downloads, though there are other possibilities. You might, for example want to have a Blu Ray compatible system. There are some music releases based on Blu Ray (e.g Universal's High Fidelity Pure Audio), and if you go that route would you perhaps also want to have the capability to watch video and maybe also listen to multi- channel sound. SACD players are also a possibility, and again the possibility of multi-channel crops up. SACD plsyers may give better SQ, though not everyone agrees, and you might find it helpful to listen to some SACDs through a good player, and cqmpare with the equivalent CDs. It's not quite a simple comparison though, as the audio mix can be different so one is not quite comparing like with like. That said, the SACD version should often sound smoother.

Since you have a lot of CDs already though, I would suggest that chasing Blu Ray audio is likely to limit what music you can listen to, and could be a very expensive way of acquiring music, though the tracks should be high quality. SACD players are compatible with CDs (indeed most Blu Ray players are, too), and there is a large enough base of SACD issues for that to be of interest. However, the widest range of music available is currently on CD, and as you have notcied there are box set releases. These often offer a lot of music at low prices - typically around £1-2 per CD - e.g EMI's Great Opera boxes for Verdi and Wagner.

There aren't many (any?) players which are compatible with all disc formats - CD, DVD, SACD, Blu Ray, DVD Audio. Possibly Oppo might have one which does all the most common ones. Generally a good dedicated CD player will give better SQ than a general purpose DVD player, for example, though nowadays many more DVD and Blu Ray players are sold than dedicated CD players. Most decent CD (and DVD, Blu Ray) players have some form of digital out these days. This can be used to drive an external DAC or AV amp. Digital multi-channel output rqeally requires an HDMI out, but 2 channel can use optical or electrical digital outputs as well - e.g Toslink/SPDIF. Older equipment may only have analogue outputs. Coupled with appropriate kit this can still give very good results - though there might be a lot of wires

Your room proportions seem very square. Do you also have high ceilings? The dimensions might limit the sound quality you can achieve, though that's a problem with most rooms. Cube shaped rooms will tend to have pronounced resonances, and a small room might not really work well for low frequencies. Having said that, it might still be possible to get good results - you'll need to try the speakers in your room. A good dealer should be willing to let you try some. There can be a very big perceptual difference between different speakers. I'm not up to date on speakers, though there are some obvious tests. For example, there is a recording of Wagner's Flying Dutchman by Keilberth. It's quite an old recoeding. If you listen on speakers with a very extended bass response you'll hear the singers jumping up and down on the stage in the Sailors' Chorus. You won't even notice on speakers with a limited bass range.

Also compare speakers with 2 drive units with 3 or 4 drive unit speakers. I have an LP of Rodrigo music where playing on speakers with 2 drive units sounds OK, but on speakers with 3 drives more instruments appear. There is one trumpet entry which goes completely unnoticed on a 2 drive system.

There are compromises to be made though. Sometimes the more detailed sound from.a 3 drive system may give a more nasal sound. Some people may prefer less detail to avoid the nasal sound. Bass extension can also give problems due to resonances - which may come from the speakers or the room, or both. Boxy or boomy effects get very tirinng, and should be avoided. Sometimes this can be fixed by furnishings - carpets, curtains etc. but some kit just may not work well in your room.

Oh, if you have neighbours, they may not like it if you acquire a system with extended bass response!

I've never been convinced by the 'theory of precedence' either. Back in the day (25/30 years ago), I witnessed Hi-fi dealers demoing a £1000+ Meridian CD player through a pair of £65 Wharfdale Diamond speakers, claiming awesome results.

To my mind, the theory of precedence is just that, a theory.

I always felt the best results were achieved by getting the best possible source, with an even better amplifier hooked up to the most important part of all, the loudspeakers.

Edit: maybe the Meridian was £980 25 years ago, not £1000+ !

[Phileas]

I'm repeating what I've said elsewhere, but I think modern digital sources "sound" essentially the same so spending a lot at that end of the chain is not worthwhile. Even an iPhone5 measures better than many so-called high-end DACs.