The joy of 33 and a third

[Bryn]

Presumably that is why Bryn wrote "vinyl" rather than
vinyl.

Indeed. Also, I note that the sound is "quality".

[mangerton]

Indeed. Also, I note that the sound is "quality".

Ah, that much maligned word. Whenever it appears in advertising blurb, there's never a hint as to whether it's "excellent", "good", "mediocre", "poor", or "abysmal".

With two 3 watt speakers mounted either side of a 15" box, my hopes are not high, and I shuddered when I read this:

Q: What is the speaker output? 1 answer
A: 2x3W RMS (14W PMPO) Stereo

I thought that "PMPO" (Peak Music Power Output, as any fule kno) had been buried long ago. It certainly should have been.

[Alain Maréchal]

Were there ever 78rpm vinyl records? Surely they were all shellac.

I have it on good authority (well, the personal experience of a now deceased friend whose collection dated back to the prewar period) that around the late 1940s Deutsche Grammophon were producing 78 rpm discs on heavy vinyl, which they later used for their early LPs.

Beef Oven has my sympathy: at great personal cost (the objections of Madame) I have kept all my LPs and still play them. There are certain that never made it to CD. Ironically, since I intended them to be a comfort in my retirement, I may now have to weed some (quite a lot) out due to lack of space.

[VodkaDilc]

I have it on good authority (well, the personal experience of a now deceased friend whose collection dated back to the prewar period) that around the late 1940s Deutsche Grammophon were producing 78 rpm discs on heavy vinyl, which they later used for their early LPs.
e.

It was something like that which I had at the back of my mind when I first queried the phrase 'vinyl 78s'.

[Ant]

"Were there ever 78rpm vinyl records? Surely they were all shellac. "

Yes - not too long before 78s ceased production, I recall a schoolfriend buying at least one - Presley? Haley? Steele? I don't remember but (cue sepia-tone sound) when I were a lad in the 50s we played these things with nails soldered to tin cans...

Regards Ant

[Ferretfancy]

I had a few 78 vinyls back in the early 50s, including I remember Chris Barber and his band playing Bad Penny Blues. The cheap record players of the time with a turnover stylus didn't track 78s very well, our old EMG wind up gramophone at school did a better job

[LeMartinPecheur]

I had a few 78 vinyls back in the early 50s, including I remember Chris Barber and his band playing Bad Penny Blues. The cheap record players of the time with a turnover stylus didn't track 78s very well, our old EMG wind up gramophone at school did a better job

I'm too young to have bought new 78s, but among those left to me are 3 Bill Haleys, including Rock around the Clock. Was hoping they'd be worth a bomb but they ain't - the 45s are worth far more

[Bryn]

I had a few 78 vinyls back in the early 50s, including I remember Chris Barber and his band playing Bad Penny Blues. The cheap record players of the time with a turnover stylus didn't track 78s very well, our old EMG wind up gramophone at school did a better job

Problem is/was that Shellac needed a relatively soft, pliable stylus (thorn or, in cheaper players, mild steel) whereas vinyl requires a hard stylus (diamond or, at a push, sapphire). In the former case it's the stylus which need to 'give', whereas in the latter it's the wall of the groove that does the flexing.

[Dave2002]

Were there ever 78rpm vinyl records? Surely they were all shellac.

I thought that some record companies may have made vinyl or similar copies for transcription purposes where the masters were still in good condition. I recall some recordings may have been made by producing "good" quality playable 78s and then re-recording these for LP or similar distribution. Does anyone else remember this? I think some of the records of singers of earlier years may have been resurrected by these means.

[Gordon]

I thought that some record companies may have made vinyl or similar copies for transcription purposes where the masters were still in good condition. I recall some recordings may have been made by producing "good" quality playable 78s and then re-recording these for LP or similar distribution. Does anyone else remember this? I think some of the records of singers of earlier years may have been resurrected by these means.

If you are restoring from the original metal masters then making a low noise vinyl pressing and then playing it normally is a preferred method. Otherwise a very complicated special "inverted" stylus is needed to track the metal master.

[retroman]

There were indeed some 78s pressed as catalogue items in LP (that is, unfilled) vinyl - I recall a Chris Barber (I think) Nixa, for instance. The record companies themselves made vinyl pressings for internal transfer purposes, and these surface from time to time, particularly Decca group material.

The playing of metals seems to be more prevalent in the States than here, certainly of stampers - a mother plays much like an ordinary pressing, as it has grooves rather than ridges. The degree of freedom offered by the groove forcing the stylus upwards is absent on stampers, so the size of the fork has to be very carefully determined if damage is not to result. The different hardness of the metal also upsets the frequency response of the pickup, giving rise to a searing treble which some engineers don't bother to correct...the favoured method is to strike some vinyl pressings and work from them, but this is of course expensive. At one time, a fellow in the Netherlands was making mouldings from stampers in styrene. These were rather good for transfer purposes, having quiet surfaces and a hardness not too far from that of shellac. The wear properties weren't great, but if you were getting the information off this didn't matter too much.

[Ariosto]

Resurrection time

What do people think of the quality of the sound - vinyl compared to CD - or to digital recordings 16/24 bit?

I have just been playing a CD of an LP of Mozart string quartets made in the 1970's. I transferred this from my LP to a recordable CD, probably via my Tascam digital recording machine. The sound seems to me to be glorious. Was this the 1970's recording techniques - or the vinyl LP's - or the playing? The playing is of a quality that is rare - the Alban Berg string quartet. In fact the Alban Bergs are almost unique.

But the sound has been captured onto a CD from an LP, so CD's can sound like LP's.

I know there is more B/S floating around about this subject, and CD's with modern recording techniques can sound fabulous as well, and I have a friend who regularly proves this with his professional recordings, as engineer and producer. (He's a musician as well so he has head start over most!)

[Roehre]

What do people think of the quality of the sound - vinyl compared to CD - or to digital recordings 16/24 bit?

I have just been playing a CD of an LP of Mozart string quartets made in the 1970's. I transferred this from my LP to a recordable CD, probably via my Tascam digital recording machine. The sound seems to me to be glorious. Was this the 1970's recording techniques - or the vinyl LP's - or the playing? The playing is of a quality that is rare - the Alban Berg string quartet. In fact the Alban Bergs are almost unique.

But the sound has been captured onto a CD from an LP, so CD's can sound like LP's.

I know there is more B/S floating around about this subject, and CD's with modern recording techniques can sound fabulous as well, and I have a friend who regularly proves this with his professional recordings, as engineer and producer. (He's a musician as well so he has head start over most!)

Ariosto, the Alban Bergs recorded for Telefunken, the first company to use DMM (Direct Metal Mastering) to create the matrices for pressing LPs, thereby cutting short the route between tape (analogue or digital) by leaving out the electroanalysis process of creating a patrice from which the pressing matrices were pressed.
Result: a much clearer sound, with hardly any rumble audible if first class vinyl was used for the LP-pressing itself.
Was your Mozart-LP a DMM processed LP by any chance? The sleeves proudly mention this with a clear sticker like blue mark

[Ariosto]

Ariosto, the Alban Bergs recorded for Telefunken, the first company to use DMM (Direct Metal Mastering) to create the matrices for pressing LPs, thereby cutting short the route between tape (analogue or digital) by leaving out the electroanalysis process of creating a patrice from which the pressing matrices were pressed.
Result: a much clearer sound, with hardly any rumble audible if first class vinyl was used for the LP-pressing itself.
Was your Mozart-LP a DMM processed LP by any chance? The sleeves proudly mention this with a clear sticker like blue mark

I can't see anything to say it was DMM - it's a boxed set of 12" LP's of all the Mozart "Haydn" quartets.

What I hear in the sound is not only warm, but a pure and clear string sound. I made a comparison, as I had just listened to a recording of the Takacs playing Schumann (A major quartet and Piano Quintet). The Takacs are also a fine quartet (although the Alban Berg are my absolute favourites), but they were recorded a year or two ago by Hyperion, and I found the sound, especially in the A major quartet, to be rather poor. The playing sounded a bit strained, and this was noticeable in all the instruments, and there was little bloom on the sound. I suppose Hyperion are rather a second rate recording company compared with the best of the past.

[Tony Halstead]

I suppose Hyperion are rather a second rate recording company compared with the best of the past.

So very 'second rate' that about 10 years ago Klaus Heymann - 'Mr Naxos' - offered Ted Perry ( now 'the late') an OPEN CHEQUE to buy out Hyperion.
Ted turned him down, of course.