Apple Time Machine - a disaster waiting to happen?

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  • Dave2002
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 18045

    Apple Time Machine - a disaster waiting to happen?

    This is probably not the best place in the world to post this [best forum, best web site!], but I tried typing in a few relevant key words to search to see if anyone else has written about a major problem with Apple's Time Machine, and if they have, I've yet to find their writings.

    Time Machine, like some other software, is good - up to a point. The point where it fails is when the Time Machine drive becomes full. I identified this as a potential problem a few years ago, and wondered what the software would do. If I were writing the software, I'd probably warn the user (a) before it happened, (b) halt and warn the user when it happens (c) offer the user to delete backups selectively - e.g newest first, oldest first, or whatever the user wanted, (d) offer the user a chance to add in another drive at the time when the first drive becomes full, (e) delete files selectively etc. There are many strategies which don't involve brute force deletion. So what does Apple's Time Machine do? It simply goes ahead and deletes files - no questions, no consideration of which files might be most important - it simply assumes that the oldest back up is the one to go.

    I can now confirm that this is what TM does, as it has now happened to me a few times, including last night, when it managed to jump forward about a year. Hopefully there's no major problem, as I have files backed up onto other hard drives, and indeed on to other machines, but there is a worry that something might have been lost which I really wanted.

    Another issue is what actually was deleted. Maybe somewhere there are file logs, but I am currently unaware of them. Apple's marketing is such that they will have you believe that everything is so user friendly that there's no problem - until you actually encounter one. The start of the post suggested a problem, and it's most likely that if you type in "Apple Time machine disaster" you'll encounter marketing pages, or pages telling you how wonderful TM is because someone had a disaster, and after a few hours they were able to recover all their files. What you probably won't find quickly or easily is pages telling you how TM really can be a disaster because it deletes backups without consulting the user.

    I did find one page - http://www.belightsoft.com/products/...imemachine.php - which contained a few lines of interest:

    Time Machine does not offer you the opportunity to compress data. As a result, backups created in Time Machine take up the same amount of space as the original files. A person backing up a 250GB hard drive will find Time Machine constantly erasing older backups without warning in order to write newer files. The way around this problem is to constantly buy new external hard drives.
    This page confirms that there are problems with TM, though does not suggest a very viable solution. Naturally the page also promotes its own product.

    Up to now I've not worried too much about this, as I have thought that my strategy of using multiple drives and continuing to copy files around would be robust enough. I intended to use a complete backup strategy, using tools such as SuperDuper, but never quite got around to it. The problem with such an ad hoc strategy with this is that I may have to search around quite a few drives in order to find files - if indeed I think or know that they've been lost. The problem with using backup tools such as SuperDuper is that it turns me - once again - into a systems manager, and to do the job properly would require multiple drives, and careful logging. It could also require considerable time. A few days ago, using a high performance Mac Mini with USB 3 and USB 3 drives, it took around an hour to copy around 100 Gbytes [I'll have to check], so copying a 500GByte or 1Tbyte drive would take correspondingly longer. Using Thunderbolt drives would perhaps take half as long, but Thunderbolt drives or RAID systems are relatively expensive.

    This post is perhaps too long already, so I will leave giving an example of where TM's backup "strategy" can really leave a user with a big problem, but simply point out that as more and more of us are using computers for audio and video - and that video files typically tend to be large - that it's quite possible that mixing different types of data on Apple machines which use TM will cause the TM "backup" file of important and or wanted personal older files to be erased in favour of large (video?) files, which in many cases are ephemeral, and/or which can easily be replaced.

    Users - such as some here - could find their iTunes or other libraries decimated if they rely on TM for backups - relevant to those who want to rip all their CDs (even DVDs?) to hard drives.

    This is an area where I'd give Apple very low marks - though otherwise I still like their products and a lot of their software.
  • MrGongGong
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 18357

    #2
    I've recently increased the size of my Time Machine backup drive
    however the real question is what do you want the backup for ?
    since (as with more or less all users of technology) I have lost "important" things in the past
    I have thought quite hard about this "issue" and adopted a different strategy and tried to think about why would I want to try and hold onto everything ? What is really worth keeping and what is superfluous ?

    Time machine is brilliant, I've used it many times to restore thing and keep going

    when my 500gb drive was getting full it did what you said
    BUT there were plenty of warnings about it deleting old data

    Anything REALLY important I store in multiple places
    and most data loss isn't a catastrophic as one might at first imagine
    a bit like the storm of 1987 you gain as well as loose

    I think the "problem" is more to do with psychology than software


    apologies for this one again but this has some interesting things to say about this area.....

    Comment

    • Dave2002
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 18045

      #3
      Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
      when my 500gb drive was getting full it did what you said
      BUT there were plenty of warnings about it deleting old data
      Before or after? I've never seen any warnings. Could be an OS issue, though shouldn't be.
      This machine is running Snow Leopard.

      If it's a settings issue, then surely the default should be to give warnings.

      For some people Time Machine will be like a car safety belt which fails at the precise time they most need it.
      Apple's marketing will lull gullible people into a false sense of security.

      Comment

      • french frank
        Administrator/Moderator
        • Feb 2007
        • 30507

        #4
        In practice, I've only ever used it a few times to recover stuff I've recently deleted and then find I shouldn't have. I often use an old letter, for example, ready with addresses to and from, delete the old letter, redate and write the new one on top. I then forget to 'Save As' and 'Save' instead - and I've lost the original letter.

        I don't think I've ever burrowed back so far in the past that I'm in the software deletion area (they'll have been auto deleted from my memory by then!). I just assume after months or years that the early copies won't be there. The drive only holds 160Gb.

        But it is brilliant when it's needed!

        PS I don't store many pictures or videos. Don't have time to listen to/watch what I already have. But, you're right - in principle - I wouldn't rely on Time Machine for that anyway. I'm not sure why you would want to.
        It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

        Comment

        • Mr Pee
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 3285

          #5
          This thread is a bit of an anti-climax...When I saw the title I thought Apple had actually invented a Time Machine.
          Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.

          Mark Twain.

          Comment

          • MrGongGong
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 18357

            #6
            Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
            Before or after? I've never seen any warnings. Could be an OS issue, though shouldn't be.
            This machine is running Snow Leopard.

            If it's a settings issue, then surely the default should be to give warnings.
            .
            It is on my (Snow Leopard) machine
            so if you go to the Time Machine prefs then Options you can choose it to notify you

            strange that it doesn't seem to be that on yours ?

            I guess also that i'm not a "typical" user, I did two days recording with students this week which generated about 10gb of audio, pretty normal for me. Some projects I work on can easily generate 50gb in a couple of days so i'm very aware of the size and location of the files I use. People who do a lot of movie editing are in a more data intensive situation so will often tend to only import the files they are actually working on rather than try to save everything on one machine.

            Comment

            • french frank
              Administrator/Moderator
              • Feb 2007
              • 30507

              #7
              It does say 'Notify after old backups are deleted', though. No?
              It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

              Comment

              • Dave2002
                Full Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 18045

                #8
                Originally posted by french frank View Post
                In practice, I've only ever used it a few times to recover stuff I've recently deleted and then find I shouldn't have. I often use an old letter, for example, ready with addresses to and from, delete the old letter, redate and write the new one on top. I then forget to 'Save As' and 'Save' instead - and I've lost the original letter.

                I don't think I've ever burrowed back so far in the past that I'm in the software deletion area (they'll have been auto deleted from my memory by then!). I just assume after months or years that the early copies won't be there. The drive only holds 160Gb.

                But it is brilliant when it's needed!

                PS I don't store many pictures or videos. Don't have time to listen to/watch what I already have. But, you're right - in principle - I wouldn't rely on Time Machine for that anyway. I'm not sure why you would want to.
                Your use of TM seems reasonable, though with only 160Gbyte I would suspect that eventually, even with light use, you will encounter the deletion issue. Since portable 500 Gbyte or even 1 TByte drives are now fairly cheap, may I recommend that you invest in one, or possibly two - one for TM and one as an external back up unit.

                There is too often an assumption that old data, which is hardly ever used on a day to day basis, cannot be important. I'll give a counter example - hypothetical of course. 10 years ago someone made a will (leaving £millions to his relatives, of course ...! cf Bleak House ), and scanned in a copy of that document. Thinking that there may be a future disaster, when TM came along he/she put that scanned copy into an Apple machine and turned TM on. Being thoughtful that person also gave access details to the relatives. Assuming that the hardware does not otherwise have problems possibly when the day comes that the will is needed there is no paper copy - it having been destroyed in a fire. Relevant relatives turn on the computer to look for the document.

                AGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

                It's gone because someone else has had access to the machine and been using it to watch many editions of .... [fill in your choice here ...] .... Coronation Street ... Eastenders .... Best Horror Movies .... etc.

                [no appropriate smiley on this system!]

                Comment

                • french frank
                  Administrator/Moderator
                  • Feb 2007
                  • 30507

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
                  Since portable 500 Gbyte or even 1 TByte drives are now fairly cheap, may I recommend that you invest in one, or possibly two - one for TM and one as an external back up unit.
                  I actually have three external drives - one for TM and two for complete backups - a 1TB one and a little 250Gb. I do smart backups with SuperDuper! on both of them.

                  I don't rely on paperless bills &c - you have to produce two or more bills, showing your name and address for various official purposes - no good printing them off from your computer because they could have been fiddled with.
                  It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                  Comment

                  • Dave2002
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 18045

                    #10
                    Originally posted by french frank View Post
                    I actually have three external drives - one for TM and two for complete backups - a 1TB one and a little 250Gb. I do smart backups with SuperDuper! on both of them.

                    I don't rely on paperless bills &c - you have to produce two or more bills, showing your name and address for various official purposes - no good printing them off from your computer because they could have been fiddled with.
                    Well said re paperless bills! Most people seem to have overlooked this point. I have generally resisted attempts to switch me to paperless bills e.g from the gas company - even though it might cost me a few pounds/year.

                    Ah - SuperDuper - you might be an expert. I obviously need to get to grips with this.

                    MrGG's post highlights problems with users who generate large amounts of data rapidly. My understanding of TM is that such behaviour could cause difficulties, as the throughput is high. Users who use audio and video editors (for example) could generate huge intermediate files while working on a project. Some cautious ones may want to keep all the intermediates - and will presumably save them/archive them deliberately. Others may only want the final end result. A machine with TM which is used for many such projects per year could have file traffic vastly exceeding the size of the main drive, or the TM drive. It is possible that the work on such projects could cause non related files to be flushed out and lost, and without knowing which files are important it would certainly be possible for essential documents and data to be lost.

                    Most users do not have this behaviour, so don't realise the possible problems. Indeed, my own observations are that typically a small organisation may be able to manage very well for years with only 10-20 Gbytes store, and some private users have only small storage requirements, also over many years. On the other hand, some organisations deal with large files and data (e.g engineering drawings and data - could easily be over 4Gbytes each), and some private users like to keep photos, videos, music etc. which are orders of magnitude more demanding than the odd letter. The mix of file types presents problems for archiving, and for automated backup storage systems.

                    Comment

                    • Resurrection Man

                      #11
                      Are we not expecting too much? If your computing environment is one (like MrGG) where you generate considerable data ...possibly large files...then you adopt a back-up strategy to work. Ditto Time Machine.....not sure what your complaint is. The fact that TM didn't give you the option before deleting older files? But as MrGG says...it does give you warnings. It says that it will start to delete old backups AT THE NEXT BACKUP.

                      Equally isn't it incumbent on any computer user to keep a weather eye on whether their backup disk is getting full?

                      But even if you got this message, what would you have done? You can't easily go through TM looking at files and selectively deleting them. That's not how it works. This website you might find useful.



                      Also do not use TM to restore from...simply takes too long. Go and buy a separate external hard drive and run Super Duper. Once you have set it up it it painless, automatic and their support is first-rate in the unlikely even you have a problem. I cannot recommend SuperDuper highly enough.

                      Comment

                      • Resurrection Man

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
                        ....The mix of file types presents problems for archiving, and for automated backup storage systems.
                        Sorry, Dave 2002, but I don't agree with this statement. A program like SD easily handles this in its stride.

                        Comment

                        • Resurrection Man

                          #13
                          General reminder to all folks........when was the last time you actually checked that you COULD restore from your backup?

                          Comment

                          • french frank
                            Administrator/Moderator
                            • Feb 2007
                            • 30507

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Resurrection Man View Post
                            General reminder to all folks........when was the last time you actually checked that you COULD restore from your backup?
                            Do you just plug in the hard drive before you switch on, or what? The last instruction on SuperDuper! is always - Make disc drive bootable, or words to...
                            It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                            Comment

                            • MrGongGong
                              Full Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 18357

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Resurrection Man View Post
                              Sorry, Dave 2002, but I don't agree with this statement. A program like SD easily handles this in its stride.
                              Some of my archives look like this



                              and



                              and




                              which might be a little tricky ?

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