Amazon Cloud

[teamsaint]

Despite MrGG's reservations I took the techno plunge and bought one this morning.
£99(normally £129) at waitrose with a 2 year warranty...not normally a gadget person.....but at that price couldn't resist.

It seems Mrs TS likes it .....

[Resurrection Man]

On principle, I buy nothing from Amazon. It can be a bit of a pain at times but there you go. Nor do I frequent Starbucks...but that is a much easier thing to do!

[teamsaint]

RM, do you make a principled decision on everything you buy? most big companies have little secrets...

I don't like buying from Amazon, but they won't have made much money on this one, and i am unlikely to buy anything extra as a result, so my conscience is clear on this.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

if you are not going to buy anything from businesses that fiddle taxes you might save yourself a considerable amount of money .... and starve ...all the foodstores do it too

[teamsaint]

to use BBC iPlayer on a Kindle do you HAVE to have a BBC id? never heard of this before.

[Resurrection Man]

if you are not going to buy anything from businesses that fiddle taxes you might save yourself a considerable amount of money .... and starve ...all the foodstores do it too

I'd be interested on more information as to which foodstores 'fiddle' their taxes and to what degree. You say 'all'. Does that include Waitrose (part of the John Lewis Partnership)? Do they fiddle on the same scale as Amazon and Starbucks?

Even if they do, one does have to eat. But if anyone advocates (I'm not saying that you do) that big business isn't playing fair, evading/avoiding taxes then to continue to support such businesses when alternatives are available is surely hypocritical ?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

the corner shop, Tesco, and Uncle Tom Cobley but John lewis is moaning about the unfair competitive advantage from Amazon and its multinat ilk not paying tax ... ...

no not hypocritical, realistic; they will not notice the absence of my purchases .... and it is hypocritical to single out Amazon and Starbucks when Tesco has been tax dodging forever ... and the good old high street eh ...

it is not the retailers and businesses who are in the wrong here, they will all assure you that they pay the tax the law demands .... just that the law has holes in it ... i will not vote for any party that will not reform UK taxation .... that commitment currently leaves me without much choice when voting

[Resurrection Man]

the corner shop, Tesco, and Uncle Tom Cobley but John lewis is moaning about the unfair competitive advantage from Amazon and its multinat ilk not paying tax ... ...

no not hypocritical, realistic; they will not notice the absence of my purchases .... and it is hypocritical to single out Amazon and Starbucks when Tesco has been tax dodging forever ... and the good old high street eh ...

it is not the retailers and businesses who are in the wrong here, they will all assure you that they pay the tax the law demands .... just that the law has holes in it ... i will not vote for any party that will not reform UK taxation .... that commitment currently leaves me without much choice when voting

I'm struggling to follow your line of reasoning. You seem to be saying that everyone in the High Street is fiddling tax. It's possible. It's the scale of Amazon that is the issue, surely. The local corner shop might manage to 'fiddle' a small amount of tax by claiming a household purchase as a legitimate business expense but as a proportion of revenue I would argue that the likes of Amazon are way ahead in terms of not paying tax.

Nor can I square the argument 'they won't notice my not shopping with them' as a valid reason not to boycott them. It smacks more of a convenient 'get-out', to be honest. Comes down to principles at the end of the day. If we follow your argument then neither you nor I should really bother about climate change. To hell with it. Let's drive a gas guzzler.

I do agree re Tesco's and wouldn't shop there ...not necessarily because of their tax regime (I have not studied that) but their wish to totally dominate, their rapacious greed etc.

What reform to UK taxation would you wish for? Surely the issue of Amazon not paying UK tax is more down to a global taxation policy ?

[teamsaint]

I'm struggling to follow your line of reasoning. You seem to be saying that everyone in the High Street is fiddling tax. It's possible. It's the scale of Amazon that is the issue, surely. The local corner shop might manage to 'fiddle' a small amount of tax by claiming a household purchase as a legitimate business expense but as a proportion of revenue I would argue that the likes of Amazon are way ahead in terms of not paying tax.

Nor can I square the argument 'they won't notice my not shopping with them' as a valid reason not to boycott them. It smacks more of a convenient 'get-out', to be honest. Comes down to principles at the end of the day. If we follow your argument then neither you nor I should really bother about climate change. To hell with it. Let's drive a gas guzzler.

I do agree re Tesco's and wouldn't shop there ...not necessarily because of their tax regime (I have not studied that) but their wish to totally dominate, their rapacious greed etc.

What reform to UK taxation would you wish for? Surely the issue of Amazon not paying UK tax is more down to a global taxation policy ?

How is that different to other big companies? They are just very successful at what they do, surely?

[Resurrection Man]

How is that different to other big companies? They are just very successful at what they do, surely?

What? Tax evasion?

[teamsaint]

What? Tax evasion?

the bit in bold from your post.
You say you don't shop at tesco because of their rapacious greed, wish to dominate etc. But they are just the same as other big companies surely, just that they have been better at it for a few years.

All the big supermarkets are of a similar nature, with the possible exception of Waitrose....


Anyway, we have to make a judgement, and the revelations about amazon will certainly affect my behaviour....but if I make a "principled" decision to boycott, am I sure that the next company is any better?

Highly credible firms such as M and S have been caught , for instance , using products made with dubious labour practices.....and I bet they all have the best tax specialists wringing every last penny out of the system.
Its a dirty world.

[Resurrection Man]

the bit in bold from your post.

Ah, sorry, missed that.

You say you don't shop at tesco because of their rapacious greed, wish to dominate etc. But they are just the same as other big companies surely, just that they have been better at it for a few years.

A fair point but I think that Tesco are in a league all of their own, to be honest.

All the big supermarkets are of a similar nature, with the possible exception of Waitrose....

Certainly the impression one gets is that they drive a hard bargain with their suppliers. But perhaps 'we' are just as much to blame in expecting food at silly prices. Farmers are getting paid the same per pint of milk that they were in 1993. The price of a pint should really be up at well over £1.

Anyway, we have to make a judgement, and the revelations about amazon will certainly affect my behaviour....but if I make a "principled" decision to boycott, am I sure that the next company is any better?

Quite possibly but we have to try, surely?

Highly credible firms such as M and S have been caught , for instance , using products made with dubious labour practices.....and I bet they all have the best tax specialists wringing every last penny out of the system.
Its a dirty world.

Quite likely but I'll bet that as a percentage of their sales, for example, they pay a damn sight more tax than Amazon and Starbucks etc.

[teamsaint]

Ah, sorry, missed that.



A fair point but I think that Tesco are in a league all of their own, to be honest.



Certainly the impression one gets is that they drive a hard bargain with their suppliers. But perhaps 'we' are just as much to blame in expecting food at silly prices. Farmers are getting paid the same per pint of milk that they were in 1993. The price of a pint should really be up at well over £1.



Quite possibly but we have to try, surely?



Quite likely but I'll bet that as a percentage of their sales, for example, they pay a damn sight more tax than Amazon and Starbucks etc.

The supermarkets DO strike hard bargains...I have dealt with one or two...to be fair , with them its not always about price....and they don't always make "logical " decisions.
I agree that we have to make an effort to support the "good " guys...and despite some inevitable failings (possibly due to very complicated supply chains) they probably are a better bet than many , if we want to shop ethically.

I think amazon are going to get hit by the tax revelations...and they deserve to. Lots of people are reconsidering...i am doing my bit by buying a machine that they are subsidising!

For once we are somewhere near agreement....and as for starbucks....nobody gets £3 out of me for a mediocre (or any other kind of) coffee.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

my points are very simple

amazon provides an excellent service at a good price [and often reaches an outstanding level of service and responsiveness]

it pays all the tax it is obliged to even if that is a pittance [politicians to fix not me the consumer]

amazon is by no means alone in this tax posture

starbucks are rapacious profiteers and expensive .... so i do not go there at all ...

you can boycott who you like ... it bears no moral imperative on my choices ...

that is all ....

[Resurrection Man]

.....
For once we are somewhere near agreement.......

Out of curiosity we drove round some local farm shops to try them out. Sadly without exception, the quality of the produce was poor and the prices much higher than the supermarkets...even for their own produce.