CD Players and SACDs etc

[Gordon]

How many of you have CD players that refuse, or are even sometimes reluctant, to play SACDs [the CD layer only of course not the DSD] or computer burned CD-Rs?

Is it reasonable in this day and age [despite the "Red Book" issue] that HiFi players [especially if they cost a lot] should go beyond the purism of the RB and play anything that the consumer has available? Should manufacturers make a clear statement in their blurb and specs that their players are capable of all three formats, or not, as the case may be? After all all the SACDs I have suggest that they are playable on all "normal" CD players ie generally available to consumers. The irony is that in my expereince the cheaper machines are more tolerant than the expensive "HiFi" ones!

[Bryn]

I have not encountered quite the problem you raise, but my Panasonic Blu-ray burning deck refuses to output the audio from some audio DVD-Rs I have burned on a computer's DVD writer (audio DVDs compiled using Audio DVD Creator). The Panasonic deck appears to read them and displays the menus and the passing of time as the disc 'plays', but no sound emerges from the speakers. The discs play fine in other DVD/Blu-ray decks.

[Mahlerei]

I haven't had a problem with SACDs not playing on my Pioneer PD D9; I can only think of one, an early Naxos SACD, that refused to play. An authoring problem, perhaps? Oh, and one BD-A that refused to work in my Sony Blu-ray player.

[jayne lee wilson]

Neither the Krell Kav-300CD with a 15 year-old, once serviced, Teac VRDS transport (used alone or as output to DacMagic), nor the custom-rebuilt Marantz CD63 Mk.2KI Signature with its 7 year-old perfectly ordinary Philips CDM transport, have had any trouble (yet) playing hybrid SACDs. When I had the Arcam CD37 SACD player here on audition for a week or so, it played the dozen or so SACDs I fed it but needed rebooting once or twice on 2 of them. Have you tried stabiliser mats like the marigo? (I found the SID overdamped, the Marigo Signature sonically beneficial...)

There seems a fair amount of anecdotal evidence for such a problem, but I can't explain it. I remain suspicious of SACD itself - the discs are usually converted from pcm masters, and the hybrid players don't often process the pcm/dsd data separately, so what are you listening to?
Paul Miller remarked recently in HiFiNews that the 24/44.1 downloads from eClassical should sound better than the SACDs drawn from the same source. (HiFiNews have monthly graphic analyses of a selection of hi-res downloads - q.v...)

Both transports will doubtless go wrong very shortly now I've written that. Knock on wood, etc.

[Stunsworth]

When I copied my CDs to hard disk I ripped the CD layer of several SACDs, there were no problems with any of them.

Although I was keen on SACD when I bought a player I now think that the future (for me at least) is downloads and streaming of 24/96, 24/88.2 or 24/44.1 - and from the record companies point of view they're often cutting out the middleman.

[johnb]

Paul Miller remarked recently in HiFiNews that the 24/44.1 downloads from eClassical should sound better than the SACDs drawn from the same source. (HiFiNews have monthly graphic analyses of a selection of hi-res downloads - q.v...)

I'm puzzled by that. Surely the original recordings are made in, at the very least, 24/88.2 or 24/96 and all the editing to produce a final 'master' will also be done at that level - only resampling down for the 'master' used for the CD production.

So it he suggesting that the SACD layer is merely 16/44.1 upsampled rather than being separately derived from the original master (24/88.2, 14/96 or higher) from which the 16/44.1 CD was also derived?

[OldTechie]

So it he suggesting that the SACD layer is merely 16/44.1 upsampled rather than being separately derived from the original master (24/88.2, 14/96 or higher) from which the 16/44.1 CD was also derived?

No, I think he is saying that an SACD conversion from 24/96 may not sound as good as a downloaded 24/96 file. This may be particularly true if the digital to analogue conversion in your SACD player is not up to the standard of your conventional DAC.

[Gordon]

Thanks all for replies. Seems like no one has a directly similar problem. Bryn's Blu Ray is perhaps most similar and equally perplexing. Is it to do with DRM on that player perhaps, given that it plays on everything else? The fact that the time counter is showing that it's playing suggests that the track is acquired and that the servos have locked and it's getting the bit stream off the disc anyway.

Both CD-R and Hybrid SACD are practically identical to normal CD, the only real systematic difference being that when using a standard CD player the laser has to look through the extra DSD layer of the HSACD to get at the CD layer and so has its optical path obscured a bit by some additional losses and a bit of scatter. The disc itself is that bit thicker too. Similarly the CD-R disc has a different way of causing reflected light to change phase but still works on cancellation. Surely the optical system is not so sensitive or constrained that it can't deal with this and at least acquire the disc TOC? Why do disc manufacturers and record companies supply them as fit for playing on normal players?

Adding some kind of tweak device like a mat will not help if it decreases the clearances inside the player [not mine I might add but a very frustrated non technical neighbour's] because one of its other foibles is that any disc that is slighly warped scrapes as it revolves!! It's a slot loader too. Anyway this isn't about tweaking up sound quality it's about getting the damned thing to play at all. Why can't it even find the TOC, it's in exactly the same place as a normal CD?

We wouldn't mind too much of the thing was a cheap device costling a few tens of pounds, it cost orders of magnitude more and yet the cheap things behave perfectly well! The manufacturer doesn't acknowledge the problem and has returned the device more than once stating that there is nothing wrong with it and we've even sent offending discs back with it!! The dealer is perplexed too but is not of a mind to replace the machine if the manufacturer claims it's OK, even when he also has seen evidence of the problems himself.

[Bryn]

... Is it to do with DRM on that player perhaps, given that it plays on everything else? The fact that the time counter is showing that it's playing suggests that the track is acquired and that the servos have locked and it's getting the bit stream off the disc anyway ...

Backup DVD-Rs of the Matchless Recordings audio DVDs of Feldman's Music for Piano and Strings, (DVDV standard), play perfectly well in the Panasonic Blu-ray recorder. It's audio DVD-Rs compiled using Audio DVD Creator (using my own recordings - so no DRM) which the Panasonic fails to extract audio from. I think it is connected with the absence of active video data. The Matchless audio DVDs must have some sort of video linked to the clock since they only show the menu/title for a short while, after which he screen slowly fades to black. With audio DVDs made with Audio DVD Creator, all you have is static menu or title pages. In both the Matchless and Audio DVD Creator discs, the audio is LPCM.

[jayne lee wilson]

I'm puzzled by that. Surely the original recordings are made in, at the very least, 24/88.2 or 24/96 and all the editing to produce a final 'master' will also be done at that level - only resampling down for the 'master' used for the CD production.

So it he suggesting that the SACD layer is merely 16/44.1 upsampled rather than being separately derived from the original master (24/88.2, 14/96 or higher) from which the 16/44.1 CD was also derived?

Old Techie is correct - it's the processing required to turn 24-bit PCM into DSD, and the various compromises made in the player itself, that renders it, technically at least, very possibly audibly, inferior to the native 24-bit playback of the PCM file as recorded.

What's often overlooked is that most BIS SACDs are in fact converted from 24/44.1 PCM masters - this is just how BIS like to do it. (With people like Robert von Bahr, Robert Suff and Ingo Petry around, never mind the uncompromising excellence of their CDs, you'd do well to respect their choices). Rare recent exceptions include the new Vanska/Minneapolis Sibelius 5(24/96), and the Flor/Malaysia Dvorak 7(24/48). All terrific value on eClassical. Listen for yourself and decide...

When I compared the much-garlanded DaCapo Nielsen Orchestral Music (Dausgaard/Danish NSO - 6.220518) on all three formats, there was a clear hierarchy:
1)-24/96 file, Macbook - DacMagic on mimimum phase.
2)-16/44.1 CD (Usual Krell/DacMagic/ Marantz options).
3)-SACD on Arcam CD37

The Arcam SACD gave a pure, smooth, very open and precise sound, but oh so polite! Audibly lacking dynamic range and "body" compared to CD or hi-res file, with little of the rhythmic urgency the recordings otherwise revealed. Beautiful but ethereal. Only one player in one system of course, but I'm not alone in such observations. Track down Martin Colloms' comments about SACD on HiFiCritic etc. I was amazed just how close the CD replay got to the hi-res file - CD can be very, very good, especially with more recent adaptive and asynchronous processors.

[PJPJ]

Why can't it even find the TOC, it's in exactly the same place as a normal CD?

A thorough cleaning of the disc, particularly in the region closer to the spindle hole, may well solve the problem.

[johnb]

Old Techie & JLW,

Thanks for the informative and very helpful explanation. Apologies for being a bit 'slow'.

Gordon,

You have been very careful not to mention the manufacturer of the SACD that is causing the problem but, in view of their unhelpful stance, it might be assist people who might be considering purchasing a SACD if you could let us have the make (and model).

I know this is a silly suggestion, and one that you will no doubt have considered, but you could always copy the CD layer onto a CD-R via your PC (assuming that its DVD/CD drive doesn't exhibit the same quirk). Mind you, I would feel furious having to resort to such a measure.

[Mahlerei]

In general I agree with jayne regarding the quality of BIS recordings, but to my ears they're not all out of the top drawer (whatever the resolution). Robert and I had a spat over one of his recent releases that I felt was below par, but I'm pleased to say their 24-bit downloads of the Aho chamber symphonies and DSCH 1-3 are as good as it gets. Recent RBCDs are pretty consistent as well (Lindberg Extravaganza, Raschèr Sax Quartet).

the whole PCM/DSD debate has generated a lot of nastiness on toxic audio forums. On balance I think I've heard more satisfying PCM SACDs than DSD ones. Perhasp DSD is a more demanding process and more difficult to get right?

[Gordon]

A thorough cleaning of the disc, particularly in the region closer to the spindle hole, may well solve the problem

Yes indeed, good thought, but done that to no good effect!! I even checked for eccentricity of the centre hole but couldn't measure it well enough - but then what is the tolerance? There was a time when just reloading the same disc actually worked some of the time which gave some kind of clue as to the trouble.

You have been very careful not to mention the manufacturer of the SACD that is causing the problem but, in view of their unhelpful stance, it might be assist people who might be considering purchasing a SACD if you could let us have the make (and model)

No problem except that we shall feel a bit silly if they turn out to be right and we have been doing something daft. With that caveat the maker is Cyrus and the CD player model is CD8SE. These, when they work, are good sounding players, very clean and natural. They may not be the ultimate in expense or in audiophile credentials [whatever they are] but neither of us here listen to the equipment rather we listen to the music. The model has gone though some "upgrades" in recent years and it was after one of those about 18 months ago that things started to go wrong. The sound quality was palpably better after the first upgrade [to the software I understand - which is always unnerving] but the player was fussy about what it played - perhaps over-aggressive servos or possibly some discs close to tolerance in manufacture [an 80 minute CD soaks up quite a bit of that compared to RB that is nominally 74 minutes] or worn stampers etc etc? A second upgrade made matters worse without adding anything obvious to the sound quality. That is where we are with the machine, once again, with the maker for another "upgrade". I posted this thread in an attempt to see whether there was anything systematic about HSACDs played on CD only players.

I understand that this company designed its own CD transport rather than use a souped up OEM one eg like the KI upgrades to Marantz players do with Philips. They then take on all those issues that plague that design problem and that, together with a purist RB stance, may well be part of the intolerance. I think it may be a servo software issue that needs a bit more thought as to how to acquire the disc and once that is achieved, to stick like glue to the track, warps eccentricity and all.

I know this is a silly suggestion, and one that you will no doubt have considered, but you could always copy the CD layer onto a CD-R via your PC (assuming that its DVD/CD drive doesn't exhibit the same quirk). Mind you, I would feel furious having to resort to such a measure.

Yes, done that too, and it won't play the resultant CD-Rs. We've burned CD-Rs on more than one machine with more than one software tool. My machines [several types] and another friend's NAIM player has no problems at all with any HSACD we have or any CD-Rs we've burned and they all play in our car machines. The odd one out by far is the Cyrus.

On another post:

...Perhasp DSD is a more demanding process and more difficult to get right?

Too right it is!! Whilst the attractions of wide bandwidth and better S/N are, on paper, very clear, the processing to get there is not as simple by any means as LPCM as any number of AES papers from the last 15 years will demonstrate. Usually, to get optimum performance in coding DSD, particularly achieving the noise shaping to get the extra S/N, several nested Delta/Sigma stages are used to deal with the various issues arising [eg dither] and similar issues arise correspondingly at the decoder. Whilst there are known classic issues with LPCM coding [ADC] and decoding [DAC] they are at least fairly easy to understand if not easy to implement. Trying to compare the key parameters of LPCM and DSD is not a fruitful exercise.

Early audio ADC's and DACs for 16 bits or more were not at all linear ie the quantum steps were not all equal. The best audio ADCs I saw in the late 60s and early 70s were those hand built and tweaked by the BBC at their research labs [now defunct]. Some chips I remember measuring for professional audio applications in the mid-late 70s had nominal 16 bits [ie they had pins giving out 16 digital indications] but when measured using noise loading and other methods they were good if they came in around 12-13 bits. I wonder how many so called 24 bit ADCs deliver 24 bit peformance? Same applied to early video ADCs for TV in the late 60s, nominally 8 bits per sample but actually really only 6.5 bits equivalent. But then that's another story.....

[John Skelton]

the maker is Cyrus and the CD player model is CD8SE. These, when they work, are good sounding players, very clean and natural. They may not be the ultimate in expense or in audiophile credentials [whatever they are] but neither of us here listen to the equipment rather we listen to the music. The model has gone though some "upgrades" in recent years and it was after one of those about 18 months ago that things started to go wrong. The sound quality was palpably better after the first upgrade [to the software I understand - which is always unnerving] but the player was fussy about what it played - perhaps over-aggressive servos or possibly some discs close to tolerance in manufacture [an 80 minute CD soaks up quite a bit of that compared to RB that is nominally 74 minutes] or worn stampers etc etc? A second upgrade made matters worse without adding anything obvious to the sound quality. That is where we are with the machine, once again, with the maker for another "upgrade". I posted this thread in an attempt to see whether there was anything systematic about HSACDs played on CD only players.

I understand that this company designed its own CD transport rather than use a souped up OEM one eg like the KI upgrades to Marantz players do with Philips. They then take on all those issues that plague that design problem and that, together with a purist RB stance, may well be part of the intolerance. I think it may be a servo software issue that needs a bit more thought as to how to acquire the disc and once that is achieved, to stick like glue to the track, warps eccentricity and all.

Yes, done that too, and it won't play the resultant CD-Rs. We've burned CD-Rs on more than one machine with more than one software tool. My machines [several types] and another friend's NAIM player has no problems at all with any HSACD we have or any CD-Rs we've burned and they all play in our car machines. The odd one out by far is the Cyrus.

Gordon - that's interesting. I replaced an old Cyrus player, which had begun to skip, last year, and had the use for a week of their CD 8 se player. Problems with the Cyrus designed transport are ... what's the word ... well-documented http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/...layer-troubles.

The player I had sounded good when it didn't (a) refuse to recognise that there was a CD loaded (b) swallow the CD and refuse to disgorge it (as it did with a pristine Harmonia Mundi CD new out of the wrapper). Eventually I retrieved the disc by switching the player off at the plug, turning it upside down, and giving it a playful tap. I'm very careful with CDs, so there was no physical damage on any of the discs I loaded in the Cyrus and I kept to 'Red Book' (didn't try SACD or CD-R) in my 'trial' of the machine. I'd say 2-3 of every 10 discs wouldn't play first time.

I spoke to someone at Cyrus about it and he was very defensive. Then a bit hostile. I've now got a not Cyrus CD player which actually plays my discs.