A firmer bass for enjoyment!

[HighlandDougie]

I can’t remember if the REL came with software to assist in positioning, since I had added the Dirac RC at the same time. Among other advantages, the RC software lets you plonk the sub in any location in the room. Audiophile magazines describe this process of dragging the sub around the room, trying test tones to listen for various outcomes, and then having to settle for whatever spot in the room is determined to be optimal. A lot of the bad bass reputation of subs is probably due to positioning, room modes, etc. For a few hundred Euros more it’s a worthwhile investment.

The REL sub has arrived and has been duly wired up to sit alongside the ATC floor-standers. The "software" consists of advice to get a friend to adjust the volume and crossover controls while one experiments with positions and with different pieces of music. The Solti Rheingold is, alas, in Scotland so I've been experimenting with the recent Kirill Petrenko Mahler 7th and Liszt's speaker-challenging Fantasia and Fugue on "Ad nos, ad salutarem undam", as well as John Martyn and Jan Lisiecki in Chopin. So far, so good - and definitely no, "boom, boom, boom".

[Dave2002]

Are all the REL models powered - with their own amplification? I hope you enjoy the experience of using them.

[Lordgeous]

I used a REL years ago (With small ATCs)> Worked a treat!

[LeMartinPecheur]

Yes, but the proportion of energy in the fundamental is very low. Seehttps://rtaylor.sites.tru.ca/2017/01...ency-response/ in which you will find the following:-

But what about that 28Hz fundamental?

The note A0 does have a 28Hz fundamental, but very little energy is generated at that frequency. Actually the sound pressure is dominated by the 4th harmonic (at about 110Hz), which in my measurements is 35dB louder than the fundamental and 2nd and 3rd harmonics. Our hearing apparatus perceives the 28Hz pitch via the missing fundamental phenomenon, but the tone isn’t really present and we don’t need to reproduce it. The same is true an octave up at A1: the fundamental (at 54Hz) measures 35 dB below the 2nd harmonic.

As the thread has reared up again I'll ask a question of rauschwerk (or anyone else) if I may. Saying that the piano's A0 or A1 fundamental is far weaker than its higher harmonics doesn't to my way of thinking prove at all that the sound as we perceive it is the same whether or not the speakers are reproducing these low frequencies. I'm no expert on the physiology of hearing but my ears, and several other people's, know that my system sounds much better with the subwoofer on!

For further exploration of the issue, can anyone please flag up some reasonably standard piano works such as I may have on my shelves that make good use of its bottom few notes?

[richardfinegold]

The REL sub has arrived and has been duly wired up to sit alongside the ATC floor-standers. The "software" consists of advice to get a friend to adjust the volume and crossover controls while one experiments with positions and with different pieces of music. The Solti Rheingold is, alas, in Scotland so I've been experimenting with the recent Kirill Petrenko Mahler 7th and Liszt's speaker-challenging Fantasia and Fugue on "Ad nos, ad salutarem undam", as well as John Martyn and Jan Lisiecki in Chopin. So far, so good - and definitely no, "boom, boom, boom".

I woke this AM with a very sore “typing” wrist so I will be brief, will refrain today from other threads, but disappointed that REL didn’t include RC software. I had implemented mine at the same time that I had installed Dirac Plus and therefore couldn’t remember what REL contained. However when I play SACDs I output the DSD layer into the HDMI input of the DAC, and since Dirac doesn’t do HDMI I am using the sub minus the RC on those discs, and the results are still impressive.

[gradus]

As the thread has reared up again I'll ask a question of rauschwerk (or anyone else) if I may. Saying that the piano's A0 or A1 fundamental is far weaker than its higher harmonics doesn't to my way of thinking prove at all that the sound as we perceive it is the same whether or not the speakers are reproducing these low frequencies. I'm no expert on the physiology of hearing but my ears, and several other people's, know that my system sounds much better with the subwoofer on!

For further exploration of the issue, can anyone please flag up some reasonably standard piano works such as I may have on my shelves that make good use of its bottom few notes?

How about Mussorgsky Pictures, Debussy La Cathedrale Engloutie or Balakirev Islamey for the lowest piano notes..

[LeMartinPecheur]

How about Mussorgsky Pictures, Debussy La Cathedrale Engloutie or Balakirev Islamey for the lowest piano notes..

Thanks gradus, all of these are on the shelves somewhere.

[Dave2002]

As the thread has reared up again I'll ask a question of rauschwerk (or anyone else) if I may. Saying that the piano's A0 or A1 fundamental is far weaker than its higher harmonics doesn't to my way of thinking prove at all that the sound as we perceive it is the same whether or not the speakers are reproducing these low frequencies. I'm no expert on the physiology of hearing but my ears, and several other people's, know that my system sounds much better with the subwoofer on!

For further exploration of the issue, can anyone please flag up some reasonably standard piano works such as I may have on my shelves that make good use of its bottom few notes?

I did some measurements on one of our aged pianos - not good sound, but here are some spectrums. Doing "exact" measurements is hard - and arguably not terribly meaningful anyway, but this done quickly suggests that the first harmonic - the bass note A0 is about 20 dB lower than the next most significant harmonic - the fourth around A2.

I'm not sure that it's really necessary to do this kind of measurement with really good pianos or recordings - though admittedly they would undoubtedy sound weightier than the one here. In the first instance it would be important to get the measuring and recording equipment set up more accurately.





I guess having got this far, I should now filter out the higher harmonics - if I can - to see [hear] what the waveforms sound like.

[Dave2002]

Quick follow up to above - more work needed, but a simple filter maybe isn't ruthless enough at removing the higher frequencies. The sound is still of "our" piano, simply a fraction quieter.

[Cockney Sparrow]

This conversation has brought to mind, I have a pretty big sub-woofer tucked away, which in the end I didn't use, and have never used - so can't say how it should be hooked up (but I have the instructions and its from the same manufacturer of my pretty bass adequate speakers on the main system.

I sing on the bass line however I'm a baritenor but despite not being a 2nd bass* I'm definitely attuned to the bass lines, and have refused invitations to join 2nd tenors and their wandering lines with periodic starring melody lines. And I realise I enjoy, in particular those moments when the pedal stops start up - in large scale works, often choral as well as, of course, in organ solo compositions.

(*If only I were a true 2nd bass - almost as much cachet as a tenor)

A friend of mine extolled at length the merits of single driver (no tweeter or bass cones - all in one) speakers - his are from the/a pioneer of them the Jordan Full Range driver speaker, to which he has been devoted from the start of his listening years as a teenager. He upgraded to a later iteration of the Jordan - but then decided he needed a bit more bass. I lent him my sub-woofer but it didn't pass the wife acceptance factor so he's happy with a smaller one. The elephant in the room, as it were, is the fact that he no longer has a full range single driver system........

On an internet search, speaking as no organ expert nor having insight as a player, it seems there are only 2 true 64 feet stops in the world, but more 32ft stops - including York Minster, which for all I know might be the nearest to you Dave. Is it correct that a 64 foot stop adds feeling, but doesn't add much to the sound, over a 32ft stop?

Where are the experts from the Organ sub-forum in this conversation? Surely, apart from electronically produced sound, its organ music which can ultimately test a sound system in respect of bass sound.

If anyone is interested, this is as far as I went in looking for 64ft stops:
Inevitably - Wickipedia (under "Civic and Concert Hall Organs") : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pipe_organs

https://mander-organs-forum.invisionzone.com/topic/3219-64-pipes/

[Dave2002]

This article suggests that most church organs have 16 foot stops - capable of going down to 32 Hz, while cathedral organs probably have 32ft stops which can go down to 16 Hz - http://www.nazard.co.uk/organ.html

There is an organ with 32 foot stops in Edinburgh - in the Freemasons Hall - https://www.forthpipeorgans.co.uk/wp...edinburgh1.pdf

It's still quite a long trek if I wanted to hear that one.

The organ installed in Inverness Cathedral in 2004 has 32 foot stops - see http://www.churchorganworld.co.uk/fi...oadFile-14.pdf This was made and installed by Makin organ builders from Lancashire. Look at page 4 of the linked file for the specification.

[LHC]

The discussion about organ pedal notes reminds me of the story about Karajan’s first recording of Otello in 1961 included in John Culshaw’s “Putting the Record Straight”

The first 8 minutes of Otello depicts a storm, and includes a constant deep organ pedal on 3 adjacent notes, C, C sharp and D. Culshaw believed that Verdi intended that the audience should feel these notes rather than hear them, and as the Vienna Sofiensaal doesn’t have an organ, these were always going to have to be recorded elsewhere.

Culshaw wanted to use a real 64 pipe for this recording to produce the effect he thought Verdi intended, and decided to use the organ in Liverpool’s Anglican Cathedral. Culshaw managed to get Noel Rawthsthorne’s (Liverpool Cathedral’s organist) agreement on this on condition the recording was made in the middle of the night.

Rawsthorne worked out a way of jamming the pedal notes with weights to produce a constant pedal for the 8 minutes required. The first time the Decca engineers recorded these notes, it blew all their speakers. But eventually they were able to produce a recording and returned to Vienna with their tapes, which were then used on the Otello recording.

Karajan was apparently delighted with the results, and decided to use the tape for his performances at the Vienna State Opera. However, on the opening night as soon as the tape was played, all the theatre’s speakers blew immediately. Karajan didn’t try the tapes again, and reverted to the electric organ that was usually used.

[Dave2002]

Bizarre but fascinating story.

The Albert Hall organ seems to have one 64 foot, and several 32 foot options. Certainly I have found it very impressive - not to say deafening - on occasions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Albert_Hall_Organ

I would guess that nowadays digital techniques could achieve pretty much the required effects, either with a recording of a real organ, or even just using sampling and generator methods.

[HighlandDougie]

Back to Sub-Woofers (and away from the horrors of organs - instruments of the devil, at least according to the wee frees), LMP's original comment ("it's the ease of hearing detail in the bass lines of an awful lot of music") rings very true as the REL seems to be singing very much from the same hymn sheet as the ATCs. My latest test has been the Andrew Litton/Colorado SO Copland 24/96 download from BIS of 'Billy the Kid' et al where the gunfight has even more presence than normal (it is one of the best recordings of orchestral music that I know). So, a big thank you to LMP, RFG and others for their helpful encouragement.

[richardfinegold]

Back to Sub-Woofers (and away from the horrors of organs - instruments of the devil, at least according to the wee frees), LMP's original comment ("it's the ease of hearing detail in the bass lines of an awful lot of music") rings very true as the REL seems to be singing very much from the same hymn sheet as the ATCs. My latest test has been the Andrew Litton/Colorado SO Copland 24/96 download from BIS of 'Billy the Kid' et al where the gunfight has even more presence than normal (it is one of the best recordings of orchestral music that I know). So, a big thank you to LMP, RFG and others for their helpful encouragement.

I have that Litton on SACD so I will dig it out give it a whirl…I’m listening at present to a Naxos CD that I hadn’t played for probably a decade, Alan Rawsthorne Symphonic Studies, and my recollection was that these discs used to sound very “raw” but with the changes, including the sub, that my system has undergone it sounds very dynamic. I wonder how many Naxos discs I used to metaphorically hold my nose while listening will now sound revelatory? A project of discovery.