Does playing electronic music tend to damage speakers more than "ordinary" music?

[Dave2002]

Recently we bought a pair of what I hope are going to be decent speakers, when I get them set up. We were advised not to use too low a power amp to drive them, and I've heard this before.
My understanding of that is that if a low power amp is used and set to high levels, it will clip and tend to generate distorted waveforms, which will have some high energy components which may cause damage to the speakers.

Mmmmm.... so far so good. Maybe!

But what about electronic music, music generated by synthesisers - often based deliberately on square and saw tooth waves etc., and quite often with a fair bit of deliberately introduced distortion?

If the theory about low power amps is correct, would it then also be correct to say that feeding some electronic music into speakers, even with a high power amp with low distortion figures, would be just as likely to damage the speakers?

If not, why not?

[Richard Barrett]

No.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Speakers like these should be able to handle just about everything.

[gradus]

Second mortgage territory.

[Bryn]

Speakers like these should be able to handle just about everything.

Outside my price range. I had to make do with CM7s.

[Serial_Apologist]

Speakers like these should be able to handle just about everything.

The protuberances to the rear would usefully double up for back scratching purposes!

[jayne lee wilson]

Simplifying a little, all that matters is that the amp has sufficient power to drive the speaker.

This means both average power (eg 100w per channel) and dynamic ability, sometimes called “peak current”, usually measured in amps (15 amps is a little low, 25 usually more than enough; but “more than enough” is exactly what you need). This latter reserve of power, drawn upon for brief, much louder passages, is very important in music with a wide dynamic range (e.g. classical orchestral) where the demands on the amp can easily treble or quadruple into peaks (climaxes), depending on volume level, speaker impedance (i.e. resistance to the flow of current) and sensitivity. For a quick check, look at the power measurements into lower impedances: ideally this should double as the impedance decreases, i.e. 100w into 8ohms, 200 into 4ohms etc. Sure sign of a sturdy power supply.

A speaker of higher sensitivity e.g. 90db or more will go louder for a given volume level. Anything below around 87db will require greater amp power to drive it, especially in a large room . But if a speaker has unusually low average impedance, say below 4ohms, it can drain the amp power at high volume levels. So with low impedance and/or low sensitivity, a high power amp is a necessity.

Generally though, always get the most powerful amp you can afford, because then it will never approach its limits, cruising along through classical orchestral and choral demands like a powerful car, and sounding sweeter as a result - easier on the ears.
With plenty of power, it can be surprising what a modest loudspeaker can do, as the amp has control over its response (**); far more speakers are damaged through amp limitations than being "overdriven" by larger amps.
I blew one up myself back in the day (first day it was on loan from a dealer ) - then I discovered that the right channel amp had blown as well, taking the tweeter with it…an unforeseen power/impedance mismatch I only understood later on after further delving…).

The music? Beethoven 7, the trio….very demanding… (I heard it crackle before it blew; without a remote, I dived for the Volume control - alas! Too late...)

(**) Explaining this to Mum one day, she thought a little and then said: “so the amplifier looks after the speaker really, doesn’t it”.
Just so.

[mikealdren]

The simple answer is don't drive either speakers or amps close to their limits. A high power amp has reserves that will avoid any issues like clipping but it can also blow lower power speakers if you turn it up too high. The ideal answer is to have compatible (similar) power ratings for your amps and speakers that are well above what you use.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Recently we bought a pair of what I hope are going to be decent speakers, when I get them set up. We were advised not to use too low a power amp to drive them, and I've heard this before.
My understanding of that is that if a low power amp is used and set to high levels, it will clip and tend to generate distorted waveforms, which will have some high energy components which may cause damage to the speakers.

Mmmmm.... so far so good. Maybe!

But what about electronic music, music generated by synthesisers - often based deliberately on square and saw tooth waves etc., and quite often with a fair bit of deliberately introduced distortion?

If the theory about low power amps is correct, would it then also be correct to say that feeding some electronic music into speakers, even with a high power amp with low distortion figures, would be just as likely to damage the speakers?

If not, why not?

I’ve never heard that sawtooth waveforms are potentially more damaging to speakers than others like sinusoidal. As you’ll know One “problem” with classical music is that the large dynamic range compared with compressed pop means that if you turn up the gain on the quiet bits the loud bits might damage the speaker - but you’d really have to go some . I have all heard that the transients in trumpets and percussion can be a threat to tweeters if driving the speaker loud. But to be honest it all pales into insignificance compared to the damage you can do to your years by listening too loud on headphones.

[Dave2002]

Simplifying a little, all that matters is that the amp has sufficient power to drive the speaker.

Yes - but what does that mean? I think you have oversimplified here. What happens when a speaker fails? I think the issue is that the power requirements are different at different parts of the spectrum. Also many speakers use multiple units, and crossover units, or some other means of handling the spectral components. Most bass units would not, I think, be damaged by high frequency signals even if significant - firstly because the crossover circuits would prevent them reaching the drive, and secondly, because even if the drive did experience high frequency signals, the units would simply not respond - not suffer physical damage, and I'm guessing that (in the case of a dynamic speaker) the coils wouldn't get hot either.

Many of the warnings about not using too low a powered amp seem to relate to tweeter damage, and I assumed this was because clipping can occur in the amp, and this would move the frequency components fed to the tweeters into a very high - and probably inaudible - range. It also seems odd that speaker designs do not protect against that - if indeed that is what happens.

This means both average power (eg 100w per channel) and dynamic ability, sometimes called “peak current”, usually measured in amps (15 amps is a little low, 25 usually more than enough; but “more than enough” is exactly what you need). This latter reserve of power, drawn upon for brief, much louder passages, is very important in music with a wide dynamic range (e.g. classical orchestral) where the demands on the amp can easily treble or quadruple into peaks (climaxes), depending on volume level, speaker impedance (i.e. resistance to the flow of current) and sensitivity. For a quick check, look at the power measurements into lower impedances: ideally this should double as the impedance decreases, i.e. 100w into 8ohms, 200 into 4ohms etc. Sure sign of a sturdy power supply.

A speaker of higher sensitivity e.g. 90db or more will go louder for a given volume level. Anything below around 87db will require greater amp power to drive it, especially in a large room . But if a speaker has unusually low average impedance, say below 4ohms, it can drain the amp power at high volume levels. So with low impedance and/or low sensitivity, a high power amp is a necessity.
Generally though, always get the most powerful amp you can afford, because then it will never approach its limits, cruising along through classical orchestral and choral demands like a powerful car, and sounding sweeter as a result - easier on the ears.

With plenty of power, it can be surprising what a modest loudspeaker can do, as the amp has control over its response (**); far more speakers are damaged through amp limitations than being "overdriven" by larger amps.
I blew one up myself back in the day (first day it was on loan from a dealer - then I discovered that the right channel amp had blown as well, taking the tweeter with it…an unforeseen power/impedance mismatch I only understood later on after further delving…).

The music? Beethoven 7, the trio….
demanding… (I heard it crackle before it blew; without a remote, I dived for the Volume control - alas! Too late...)
(**) Explaining this to Mum one day, she thought a little and then said: “so the amplifier looks after the speaker really, doesn’t it”.
Just so.

Interesting about the Beethoven 7th incident, though that seems to have been caused as much by a poor amp to speaker match, and possibly one of them being faulty, as by a low powered amp.

Of course the moral there is "Don't listen to Beethoven!"

[Dave2002]

I’ve never heard that sawtooth waveforms are potentially more damaging to speakers than others like sinusoidal. As you’ll know One “problem” with classical music is that the large dynamic range compared with compressed pop means that if you turn up the gain on the quiet bits the loud bits might damage the speaker - but you’d really have to go some . I have all heard that the transients in trumpets and percussion can be a threat to tweeters if driving the speaker loud. But to be honest it all pales into insignificance compared to the damage you can do to your years by listening too loud on headphones.

Sawtooth waves will effectively have more high frequency components than sine waves, and square waves perhaps (??) even more.

Triangle and square waves have odd harmonics only; the sawtooth wave has both even and odd harmonics. The harmonics of the square and sawtooth waves drop off in proportion to 1/f; the harmonics of the triangle wave drop off like 1/(f^2)

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes - but what does that mean? I think you have oversimplified here. What happens when a speaker fails? I think the issue is that the power requirements are different at different parts of the spectrum. Also many speakers use multiple units, and crossover units, or some other means of handling the spectral components. Most bass units would not, I think, be damaged by high frequency signals even if significant - firstly because the crossover circuits would prevent them reaching the drive, and secondly, because even if the drive did experience high frequency signals, the units would simply not respond - not suffer physical damage, and I'm guessing that (in the case of a dynamic speaker) the coils wouldn't get hot either.

Many of the warnings about not using too low a powered amp seem to relate to tweeter damage, and I assumed this was because clipping can occur in the amp, and this would move the frequency components fed to the tweeters into a very high - and probably inaudible - range. It also seems odd that speaker designs do not protect against that - if indeed that is what happens.

Interesting about the Beethoven 7th incident, though that seems to have been caused as much by a poor amp to speaker match, and possibly one of them being faulty, as by a low powered amp.

Of course the moral there is "Don't listen to Beethoven!"

I listen to a lot of Beethoven, always have, and the 7th trio (or the 9th's finale!) is no problem now - with 86db/6 ohms Harbeth speakers driven by ATC 200w per side amps with high peak current available. Cruising along the freeway.....you never get near their limits...

What happened back then (mid-90s, with little online info to help)....
I was running QED monoblocks rated at 60w into 8 ohms, 90 into 4, into a Kelly/MF 95db speaker, but..... I had bridged the amps for mono operation - which, unknown to me at the time, had halved their average impedance; I had biwired them, halving it again; hence the blow-up. This took some time to find out and understand, back then. How much knowledge we take for granted now!

The Kelly KT2s and 3s didn't last long in the MF line-up; why? Because though the high sensitivity was a good idea, their average midrange impedance was 4 ohms - very demanding for classical music....

Tweeters are very delicate; thats why they can blow first in situations of amp overload. I would expect latterday designers to take account of this, but there's only so much you can do without compromising SQ. Best to just take care of the amp/speaker relationship oneself, as the "end-user"....much easier to research now!

[Dave2002]

Tweeters are very delicate; thats why they can blow first in situations of amp overload. I would expect latterday designers to take account of this, but there's only so much you can do without compromising SQ. Best to just take care of the amp/speaker relationship oneself, as the "end-user"....much easier to research now!

I did a search and found this from 2015 - http://forums.audioreview.com/speake...ter-11294.html

I hadn't thought of running audio at double or triple speed with the volume up - it's a possible/plausible way to damage kit. The basic view seems to be that tweeter damage is unlikely due to clipping.

I still can't get the hang of what goes wrong - and it also depends on the type of tweeter I guess. Some speakers may move air directly. Assuming most are cones - with coils - then normally the distances moved would be very small, and also I'm guessing that the coils wouldn't normally heat up sufficiently to be damaged. Obviously people have "fried" tweeters, but the view seems to be that mostly this is unlikely, and the symptoms if this happens are either no sound at all, or a somewhat "tizzy" sound.

On the other hand I have had bass units damaged - perhaps just through use - but if the suspension goes loose the cones can vibrate in an unpleasant manner, and spoil the sound. Putting a loud "thump" through a speaker could cause the bass unit to travel more than it should.

[johnb]

[QUOTE=Dave2002;854471The basic view seems to be that tweeter damage is unlikely due to clipping.[/QUOTE]

That might be correct but it goes against all the warnings I've read about using inadequately powered amps that can run into clipping. If I'm not mistaken (and I frequently am) the point is that clipping can generate a surge of "energy" in the higher frequency ranges, which can cause problems for the tweeters.

[Bryn]

That might be correct but it goes against all the warnings I've read about using inadequately powered amps that can run into clipping. If I'm not mistaken (and I frequently am) the point is that clipping can generate a surge of "energy" in the higher frequency ranges, which can cause problems for the tweeters.

Is it not the ringing associated with clipping, rather than the clipping itself, which generates the overload?