Turntables for vinyl

[jayne lee wilson]

Agree with pretty much everything rfg says here....
(I never had a love affair with vinyl, either carnal or platonic).

You can get a great sound out of anything from lossless files or CD up - downloads, streaming, hi-res, physical disc....
its not what you do its the way that you do it

Its all in the care taken over the chain of reproduction...even the best lossy codec, 320 kbps aac (Radio 3 Sounds, BPDCH Archive ) can be very enjoyable, so long as you treat the data stream with care over the transmission from source to DAC.....
Perception of quality levels or distinctions depends on the abilities of the systems and ears involved.

As for "Prof Johnson" (referred to above in Stereophile) I bought a fair number of his HDCD/CD label Reference Recordings back in the day: huge, ear-and-potentially-system-threatening dynamic range of course, but the musical and sonic qualities otherwise, though never less than "good" (if musically less than inspiring sometimes), exhibited the same variables you'd expect from many other small classical labels (BIS,CPO, Alpha etc) that took (often very subjective & individualised) care over the process...

They don't come off the shelf much now.

[Dave2002]

Right. My lps were destroyed in a flood in 1985. Around 2000 the second hand vinyl stores were popping up and I saw so many old favorites that had never been digitalized, so I bought an entry level Pro Ject tt and started buying the lps. I upgraded the analog end—I was up to a Clearaudio Concept tt and MC cartridge with a Musical Surrounding Phono pre, about a $3000 analog rig, just mentioning that to demonstrate that I had gone past entry level—and by now all those recordings were available digitally, and every single time sounded better digitalized, not to mention quieter.
I sold off the analog rig at a profit, thanks to the popularity of vinyl, same for the lps
It absolutely makes sense if you have lots of stored lps and you wish to play them to be getting an analog system. If you have no physical media and are starting from scratch, then I shake my head

Recently watched series 1 of Bosch. At first I wasn't sure what time period it was set in, but it's not that long ago. In one episode Bosch takes his daughter to his apartment with views over LA, and puts on an LP. I think he had a valve amp as well (though whether it was real - or just a fake for the film, who knows...?). Then he says the he'll buy her some kit so she can really appreciate the music.

I thought that was a real triumph of style over real music appreciation.

I have heard very good reproduction from LPs, and in some cases where the LPs were made say around 1960-1975 those may be the only way to appreciate the performances, as even CD versions will have been made since then - possibly from damaged master tapes which can't really be rescued.

However, to get good reproduction from vinyl one appears to have to spend a small fortune, and invest so much time and effort into it all that it is just not worth the bother.
I still have boxes of LPs and several turntables which I've not really bothered to rescue yet.

I recall that one member here (ff) had a new turntable to play some inherited LPs a few years ago. It would be good to know how that experience turned out with the benefit of hindsight.

[jayne lee wilson]

Actual, specific hifi components/media are rare in film and TV, but Tarantino often shows a knowledge and awareness of it, e.g. the Teac X2000R swishing around in pulp fiction.

Mia Wallace (Uma Thurman) takes Vincent Vega (John Travolta) back to the Wallace house, goes to this impressively heavy and complex, silver reel to reel tape deck and plays Urge Overkill’s Girl, You’ll Be a Woman Soon.

HBO's Sharp Objects, starring Amy Adams, regularly featured a Simaudio Moon system which cost $100k+.... but vinyl was often the preferred playback medium...well of course it was.
Camille (Adams) often plays Led Zeppelin while getting drunk in her car, though I can't recall if it was off cassette....

[cloughie]

Actual, specific hifi components/media are rare in film and TV, but Tarantino often shows a knowledge and awareness of it, e.g. the Teac X2000R swishing around in pulp fiction.

Mia Wallace (Uma Thurman) takes Vincent Vega (John Travolta) back to the Wallace house, goes to this impressively heavy and complex, silver reel to reel tape deck and plays Urge Overkill’s Girl, You’ll Be a Woman Soon.

HBO's Sharp Objects, starring Amy Adams, regularly featured a Simaudio Moon system which cost $100k+.... but vinyl was often the preferred playback medium...well of course it was.
Camille (Adams) often plays Led Zeppelin while getting drunk in her car, though I can't recall if it was off cassette....

Did Rebus play vinyl or CD?

[richardfinegold]

As someone who listens to both vinyl and digital I do think people are exaggerating the perceived failings of vinyl. Try taking a listen to one of the Blue Note Tone Poet series on a decent system to hear what the medium is capable of.

For whatever reason I -do- prefer listening to LPs rather than digital - though I listen to more digital than vinyl as it’s more convenient.

To quote someone else, mastering trumps format when it comes to the quality of replay.

For the record I have no problem with anyone who prefers digital, it’s an individual choice.

Not denying that vinyl is capable of great sound. IMO whenever I compared front ends, I prefer digital, but ymmv. However, as you note, digital is a lot easier. And, if any of the recordings that you enjoy have gone through a digital phase in the chain, then you are listening to digital, whether you acknowledge it or not

[Richard Barrett]

For whatever reason I -do- prefer listening to LPs rather than digital - though I listen to more digital than vinyl as it’s more convenient.

One of my closest friends and colleagues, whom I would credit with some of the sharpest and most discerning ears I've come across, would agree with you. Another good friend, who used to supplement his musical income reviewing gear for a specialist high-end audio magazine, has no time for vinyl. The first of these has just turned 50 so didn't really get involved in vinyl the first time around; the second is a few years older than me so moved over to digital later in life than I did. As you say it's a matter of taste! (although there is the matter of the crackles)

Also: one of the five pieces on my first CD (released in 1993) was for reasons I won't bore you with recorded on analogue tape, and I defy anyone to listen and work out which one it was!

[Dave2002]

Also: one of the five pieces on my first CD (released in 1993) was for reasons I won't bore you with recorded on analogue tape, and I defy anyone to listen and work out which one it was!

There are some amazingly good recordings made using analogue tape - though your 1993 one is I think perhaps later than one I was thinking of in which the CD masters were analogue. Some of ALW's recordings were done that way - and I'm not going to comment on the music in this post.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Vinyl - rumble , wow, tracking distortion (all measurable ) clicks BUT warmth and depth (subjective)

Digital streaming - none of the above BUT a perceptibly uneven decay on reverberation and in the case of Qubuz an alarming tendency to skip to the next track which creates a sense of aleatoric tension possibly not intended by the composer

On balance I prefer the latter ...

[jayne lee wilson]

Vinyl - rumble , wow, tracking distortion (all measurable ) clicks BUT warmth and depth (subjective)

Digital streaming - none of the above BUT a perceptibly uneven decay on reverberation and in the case of Qubuz an alarming tendency to skip to the next track which creates a sense of aleatoric tension possibly not intended by the composer

On balance I prefer the latter ...

Warmth and depth are not necessarily inherent qualities of vinyl; this is all in the turntable/cartridge design variables themselves (including how RIAA equalisation is handled - but I'll leave that to those who know more about it...!).
I have heard several CD players that had warmth to spare. (Going way back to the CAL Tempest (1987), there have been several designs including valves (in the output stages) to encourage this very characteristic). But depth is about far more than the source component.

I never suffer skipping on Qobuz/Audirvana; I use it every day, and it is always 100% stable in every way. If I want a warmer sound, I choose the Audirvana Integer 2 version, if a more analytical one, Integer 1.

Not to mention (yet again...) the wide range of filter choices now included in many DACs and disc players, from budget separates up, giving you almost endless possibilities to have the sound you want, whether warmer or more analytical.
My current DAC has four, the SACD player four, plus four upconversion choices; or you can switch them all off for non-oversampled CD/lossless - which is a very interesting sound indeed.

[Bryn]

. . . one of the five pieces on my first CD (released in 1993) was for reasons I won't bore you with recorded on analogue tape, and I defy anyone to listen and work out which one it was!

Fair enough, but what was the mastering device for the analogue recording? What tape width and speed? Come to that, was Dolby A, or some such involved in the initial recording process? For my part, the objection to vinyl discs is all the various inherent sources of distortion involved in the transfer, of what might be a very high-quality recording on tape, to metal pressing master and thence to hot vinyl. If 'direct to disc' is the case, the distortions introduced by RIAA frequency modification, groove-wall bias, tracking errors, etc. still occur.

[Dave2002]

I think sometimes “warmth” in LP feedback might be due to a small amount of acoustic feedback. For a long while also moving coil cartridges were supposed to sound better than other types, but some work not so long ago suggested that it was actually because the cartridges were interacting to produce new “artefacts” and maybe some people just preferred those. Artefacts in digital technology are well known, and some are unpleasant - for example low bit rate mp3 compression, but other artefacts, whether introduced digitally or by analogue kit may sound pleasant.

I was surprised recently listening to some instrument recordings made with different microphones, and different reverberation at just how different instruments can sound in recordings. If we accept that recordings are just a product - not necessarily an “accurate” rendition of an original sound, then recording and mastering engineers can make significant differences to sound recordings - even from the same master recordings.

[Richard Barrett]

Fair enough, but what was the mastering device for the analogue recording? What tape width and speed? Come to that, was Dolby A, or some such involved in the initial recording process?

My memory is letting me down here, except that Dolby SR was used.

[Keraulophone]

I admit to being a bit perplexed by this thread. Opinions seem to be unnecessarily polarised over vinyl/analogue v digital. I have heard almost all the arguments before, but they don’t affect me in practice because all I want to do is to sit in my listening room and enjoy the music, whether that means delving into countless LPs lovingly collected from the late 1960s onwards, cassette tapes of R3 Choral Evensongs dating back to the mid-1970s some special R3 broadcasts (eg Czech PO in Dvorak 8 from RFH with horns doubling violins the the end à la Talich, Richter’s ‘heavenly length’ Schubert from Aldeburgh) and, later on, Minidiscs (R.I.P.) of the same, and, more recently, marvelling at the sound coming from audio blu-ray discs of the Ring cycle. The turntable may be the source component requiring the most careful set-up and maintenance, but it’s really not that hard to get a decent result, though I’m not sure about the OP’s ‘plug-and-play’ turntables. Cassettes often disintegrate when they get old, though some brands survive better than others. I’ve had to throw away about 500, but some playable gems remain and can be digitally preserved via Nakamichi and PC. Lastly, though I admire some LP cover art, I haven’t gone to the extent of adorning the walls with framed sleeves (eg Karajan’s DG La Mer) as in a friend’s house.

[Cockney Sparrow]

I'm happy for you Keraulophone, and all who enjoy vinyl. We really should be able to discuss and enjoy our preferences without being loaded with negative sentiment. (The Dream of Gerontius has been mentioned at least three times in recent months, and I miss the flurry or negativity it used to occasion. Take comfort perhaps - indifference is worse than being reviled, I now see).

Yes I have cassettes (a few) and minidiscs (a lot) and even vinyl (and decks) - all unused for some years. Digital for me but I really don't want to be negative towards anyone who enjoys vinyl. In that context its difficult to say with sensitivity, but the fried eggs/kick the player metaphor in RF's post did make laugh. I would add (pace the Duke of Edinburgh) "whilst tearing up a £10" note" - or perhaps a fiver, if the cost of non-static liners, fluid cleaning machines, cotton gloves, anti static guns and prompt stylus renewals are covered to keep the albums in original condition.

One thing I will agree about - covers and liner notes. They were a loss.

[Dave2002]

What has the Duke of Edinburgh got to do with money? ¿Que?