Turntables for vinyl

[cloughie]

Absolutely! My only justification for buying a turntable would be to play Lps that haven't made it to cd.

[Richard Barrett]

When I get the urge to enjoy vinyl artifact, I fry bacon in the background

I've never for one moment regretted the replacement of vinyl by digital audio reproduction. I've never released anything on vinyl and have no interest in doing so.

[cloughie]

Does anyone remember the useful tool for setting up hifi systems aka an EMI LP SEOM6 John Borwick’s Enjoyment of Stereo? And getting your speakers not only L and R the correct way round but also ‘in phase’.

[Dave2002]

Does anyone remember the useful tool for setting up hifi systems aka an EMI LP SEOM6 John Borwick’s Enjoyment of Stereo? And getting your speakers not only L and R the correct way round but also ‘in phase’.

Been there - done that. I have several turntables all doing nothing, and quite a lot of LPs. I always promised myself that I'd get these going when I retired, but that was year's ago and I've not bothered. I guess life is too short for that kind of thing.

I have heard some very good LP playback kit, but one of my friends who had such kit decided he'd had enough, and put almost all of his LPs in the bin. They were in very good condition, but he'd obviously decided that CDs and digital were better, and also noticed that nobody was really that interested in his LPs.

Times move on, and there's probably no point in hanging on to older things which just aren't as good as some of the latest kit and techniques. Another - slightly different example. I recently spent hours trying to make high quality panorama photos, but yesterday I noticed that mobile phones can do this now. A quick test suggested that a modern phone can do a better panorama than a fairly expensive camera, and many minutes of computer time stitching separate photos together. Even a better camera doesn't significantly (if at all) improve over the phone cameras on this task. I shall keep my more expensive cameras for the moment as for some tasks they are better than phones, but for panoramas I'd suggest that the phones win.

[Keraulophone]

Sorry to put a pin in the balloon, but your lp was in all probability made from a digital master, as most lps of that vintage were digitalized...
As you point out, the expectation bias is significant, along with the enjoyment of artifact, such as the sound of the needle drop... If you and other vinylstas enjoy that, please continue to do so.

Thank you, I will. You’re right about the digital mastering of most vinyl reissues, though some are expensive analogue-path AAA ‘audiophile’ releases for the really dedicated gramophonist (‘Mastered using Pure Analogue Components Only from the Master Tapes through to the Cutting Head’ - snvinyl.co.uk), like some of those Reference Recordings made by ‘Prof’ Keith Johnson. He explains some of his thoughts on analogue and digital recording in their interview for Stereophile magazine: https://www.stereophile.com/content/...nce-recordings Here’s an excerpt:
Holt (interviewer): So virtually no consumers are hearing anything like the sound of your master tapes.
Johnson: Oh no, they aren't. This is a major problem with all record reproduction.
Holt: In that respect, then, digital can do a better job, as a conveyance between the master tape and the average consumer.
Johnson: Not necessarily. Maybe average consumers, but not on a good audiophile system.
Holt: You mean on a helluva good audiophile system.
Johnson: A very good one. What we lose in the digital copy is very interesting. The inner detail is gone, and when things get complex, like in the Symphonie Fantastique, even though the string section is subdued and distant, in the master you can pick out a number of the individual violins that are playing in there. It is not a "massed string sound" like you hear in commercial recordings. But once you've gone through the digital process you start losing the discrete-instrument sense, particularly in complex sustained-sound programs...

Also bear in mind that my palpable enjoyment of vinyl reproduction at home continues alongside mostly enjoyable CD, SACD, DVD, Blu-ray and digital download sound reproduction, though, as HighlandDougie pointed out, ‘where’s the joy - or romance - in a FLAC file?’

[teamsaint]

Thank you, I will. You’re right about the digital mastering of most vinyl reissues, though some are expensive analogue-path AAA ‘audiophile’ releases for the really dedicated gramophonist (‘Mastered using Pure Analogue Components Only from the Master Tapes through to the Cutting Head’ - snvinyl.co.uk), like some of those Reference Recordings made by ‘Prof’ Keith Johnson. He explains some of his thoughts on analogue and digital recording in their interview for Stereophile magazine: https://www.stereophile.com/content/...nce-recordings Here’s an excerpt:
Holt (interviewer): So virtually no consumers are hearing anything like the sound of your master tapes.
Johnson: Oh no, they aren't. This is a major problem with all record reproduction.
Holt: In that respect, then, digital can do a better job, as a conveyance between the master tape and the average consumer.
Johnson: Not necessarily. Maybe average consumers, but not on a good audiophile system.
Holt: You mean on a helluva good audiophile system.
Johnson: A very good one. What we lose in the digital copy is very interesting. The inner detail is gone, and when things get complex, like in the Symphonie Fantastique, even though the string section is subdued and distant, in the master you can pick out a number of the individual violins that are playing in there. It is not a "massed string sound" like you hear in commercial recordings. But once you've gone through the digital process you start losing the discrete-instrument sense, particularly in complex sustained-sound programs...

Also bear in mind that my palpable enjoyment of vinyl reproduction at home continues alongside mostly enjoyable CD, SACD, DVD, Blu-ray and digital download sound reproduction, though, as HighlandDougie pointed out, ‘where’s the joy - or romance - in a FLAC file?’

There are good reasons for the resurgence of interest in vinyl, including, and especially among younger people. The reasons may not seem important to some other people,but, frankly, that doesn’t matter at all. And if vinyl sales help musicians and record companies, then so much the better.

[Bryn]

Thank you, I will. You’re right about the digital mastering of most vinyl reissues, though some are expensive analogue-path AAA ‘audiophile’ releases for the really dedicated gramophonist (‘Mastered using Pure Analogue Components Only from the Master Tapes through to the Cutting Head’ - snvinyl.co.uk), like some of those Reference Recordings made by ‘Prof’ Keith Johnson. He explains some of his thoughts on analogue and digital recording in their interview for Stereophile magazine: https://www.stereophile.com/content/...nce-recordings Here’s an excerpt:
Holt (interviewer): So virtually no consumers are hearing anything like the sound of your master tapes.
Johnson: Oh no, they aren't. This is a major problem with all record reproduction.
Holt: In that respect, then, digital can do a better job, as a conveyance between the master tape and the average consumer.
Johnson: Not necessarily. Maybe average consumers, but not on a good audiophile system.
Holt: You mean on a helluva good audiophile system.
Johnson: A very good one. What we lose in the digital copy is very interesting. The inner detail is gone, and when things get complex, like in the Symphonie Fantastique, even though the string section is subdued and distant, in the master you can pick out a number of the individual violins that are playing in there. It is not a "massed string sound" like you hear in commercial recordings. But once you've gone through the digital process you start losing the discrete-instrument sense, particularly in complex sustained-sound programs...

Also bear in mind that my palpable enjoyment of vinyl reproduction at home continues alongside mostly enjoyable CD, SACD, DVD, Blu-ray and digital download sound reproduction, though, as HighlandDougie pointed out, ‘where’s the joy - or romance - in a FLAC file?’

The final Johnson quote strikes me as utter pseudo-scientific BS. It is not being in the digital domain that muddies the water but editorial decisions. As to "the joy - or romance - in a FLAC file", it's in the listening.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I've never for one moment regretted the replacement of vinyl by digital audio reproduction. I've never released anything on vinyl and have no interest in doing so.

Me too. I think I spent more time listening out for surface clicks, static and mistracking than I did about the music.

[Keraulophone]

The final Johnson quote strikes me as utter pseudo-scientific BS. It is not being in the digital domain that muddies the water but editorial decisions.

Not being expert in these matters, I wouldn’t know whether to question or go along with Keith Johnson’s angle here, though his general argument is better gleaned by reading through the article. What persuades me it can’t all be BS is having listened to some of his fine-sounding recordings (on LP) on very high-end equipment about twenty years ago at The Audio Consultants (when I was auditioning some valve amps). Obviously, it wasn’t possible at that time to do a direct comparison with ‘Studio Master’ FLAC, but it would be interesting to do so if the opportunity arose.

[richardfinegold]

Absolutely! My only justification for buying a turntable would be to play Lps that haven't made it to cd.

Right. My lps were destroyed in a flood in 1985. Around 2000 the second hand vinyl stores were popping up and I saw so many old favorites that had never been digitalized, so I bought an entry level Pro Ject tt and started buying the lps. I upgraded the analog end—I was up to a Clearaudio Concept tt and MC cartridge with a Musical Surrounding Phono pre, about a $3000 analog rig, just mentioning that to demonstrate that I had gone past entry level—and by now all those recordings were available digitally, and every single time sounded better digitalized, not to mention quieter.
I sold off the analog rig at a profit, thanks to the popularity of vinyl, same for the lps
It absolutely makes sense if you have lots of stored lps and you wish to play them to be getting an analog system. If you have no physical media and are starting from scratch, then I shake my head

[cloughie]

Me too. I think I spent more time listening out for surface clicks, static and mistracking than I did about the music.

Like my Katchen Emperor which jumped a groove as the bridge to the finale started.

[Roslynmuse]

Like my Katchen Emperor which jumped a groove as the bridge to the finale started.

And the joys of a repeating groove...

[cloughie]

And the joys of a repeating groove...

Funnily enough when I bought the CD in my head the sound was still there!

[richardfinegold]

Me too. I think I spent more time listening out for surface clicks, static and mistracking than I did about the music.

Exactly. Vinyl Guru Mikey Fremer who thinks digital is the Devils Work once wrote in a Stereophile column that he could “relax” when he played
Vinyl. Relax? Besides everything Alpie mentioned, which could drive you to distraction when you know the exact place that loud pop or mis-track will occur, there is the whole vinyl ritual of cleaning the lp, spraying some anti static device and waiting for it to dry, hoping that an entire side (20 minutes of continuous music can be played! Woo Hoo!) will pass with dust clinging to the stylus, and in the case of a vinylista like Fremer perhaps a dozen more rituals before music actually emerges; I guess some people find the whole ritual a form of relaxation, just like some people enjoy a trip to the Dentist without novacaine.
It is possible to achieve great sound from vinyl. Like Dave’s friend, I think most of us here agree it isn’t worth the hassle.

Regarding T.S. point, yes vinyl sales are up, perhaps putting some dosh in the hands of the musicians compared with streaming, all well and good. Most of the young uns buy them for extra musical reasons, like cover art. My nephew had bought a few classic rock lps for $30 each and was chagrined when he learned he couldn’t play them on his CD player. Most of these people keep a few albums to tack on the wall but use streaming as their music source

[Stunsworth]

As someone who listens to both vinyl and digital I do think people are exaggerating the perceived failings of vinyl. Try taking a listen to one of the Blue Note Tone Poet series on a decent system to hear what the medium is capable of.

For whatever reason I -do- prefer listening to LPs rather than digital - though I listen to more digital than vinyl as it’s more convenient.

To quote someone else, mastering trumps format when it comes to the quality of replay.

For the record I have no problem with anyone who prefers digital, it’s an individual choice.