Wi-Fi range extenders?

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  • Dave2002
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 18034

    Wi-Fi range extenders?

    Has anyone really ever had success with various wi-fi range extenders? I don't think I ever have.

    I have in the past had verifiable success with distributing wireless access points around a house, and linking them together with Powerline adapters - though sometimes the Powerline adapters didn't work - that depends sometimes on the wiring and the consumer units. The verification was simple enough - set up the additional access points, then watch a Youtube video on a laptop and walk around. With the extra WAP in place and fed by a suitable link, the video would run indefinitely - or at least for a long while. If the WAP was turned off, or the link broken, then the video would stop once the buffer in the playback app was exhausted. I tried this both with the same SSID on the WAP as the main router, but a different channel number, and also with a different SSID. AFAIK almost all devices would continue to play if the SSID is the same on both the main router and the WAP, irrespective of channel number assignment, and many devices would just switch to the alternate SSID if that had a stronger signal. Sometimes that latter approach does require the user to explicitly force the join to the different wireless network. Either way - it was possible to show that the approach worked.

    I would probably rate putting in ethernet cable above using Powerline links, but whether that's feasible depends somewhat on the internal house construction. That might work in our latest house if there are drops behind plasterboard from the loft area above, and indeed it might be better to place additional WAPs above in the loft space.

    I have never come up with a convincing test to show that wireless wi-fi extenders work for more than a few hours - if indeed at all then.

    The so-called plug and play wi-fi extenders never seem to work reliably - and there's not usually any sensible explanation of how they are supposed to work anyway. After all - most people wouldn't understand anyway, so why bother? If they do work, they perhaps rely on store and forward protocols, so the throughput would be halved - though the factor of 0.5 might be offset by the reduced errors on the outward and onward wireless links.

    I don't know whether WAPs with Mimo technology actually use an active protocol with the client devices - it's just possible, though in that case how well they work would also depend on the software drivers in the client devices. There may be some similarity with mobile phones, but I'm not sure how similar phone networks are to wi-fi networks (or vice-versa) of different forms.
  • Quarky
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 2672

    #2
    What is your Internet Speed? This seems to me a most important factor in getting Wi-Fi to work in awkward spots.

    I have never used active Wi-Fi extenders, but I have tried out various passive arrangements. However these days I don't have a problem in a house with 3 levels, and a garden shed about 40 meters away. My set up is a BT dual band router in the loft, which reliably gets 25 MBs internet signal. This distributes the Wi Fi signal around the house and into the garden. Outside the shed I have a twin dipole antenna for picking up the signal - available from the Internet.

    One arrangement I have tried without success is to have an external antenna connected to the laptop, to get a bigger signal. I find my laptops have their own internal antenna, and will not talk to an external antenna.

    Comment

    • Dave2002
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 18034

      #3
      Originally posted by Quarky View Post
      What is your Internet Speed? This seems to me a most important factor in getting Wi-Fi to work in awkward spots.

      I have never used active Wi-Fi extenders, but I have tried out various passive arrangements. However these days I don't have a problem in a house with 3 levels, and a garden shed about 40 meters away. My set up is a BT dual band router in the loft, which reliably gets 25 MBs internet signal. This distributes the Wi Fi signal around the house and into the garden. Outside the shed I have a twin dipole antenna for picking up the signal - available from the Internet.

      One arrangement I have tried without success is to have an external antenna connected to the laptop, to get a bigger signal. I find my laptops have their own internal antenna, and will not talk to an external antenna.
      I think Internet Speed is a red herring, and has little to do with wi-fi around a building. Currently we get around 70 Mbps download and 19 Mbps upload with a Ping of around 30 ms. That is to a local fibre hub which is maybe 200 metres away from our house.

      I think laptops may have a weakly directional antenna - though that would depend on the design. Your network sounds quite interesting, and you have put in additional antennas. Actually it is possible to send a wi-fi signal a long way with suitable antennae, though doing so might contravene some of the regulations.

      The point I was trying to make comparing wi-fi with the moble phone network is that in the phone network each phone interacts with the network base stations dynamically. Base stations actually do, or can, shape the directionality of their transmission (and presumably also reception) beams depending on where they "think" the mobile units are. For this to happen the mobile units (phones) have to send out a beaconing signal so that the base station knows it's there, and if there's a request for an active link then both the base station and the mobile unit can adjust their power, though generally if the phone has to up its power in order to keep the connection going, the battery will tend to run down faster.

      Wi-fi networks are more static, and generally the mobile units (laptops, tablets) don't move around very fast, but they may change location and orientation quite frequently depending on the users. Also, if there are multiple users - which is nowadays more common, and users are now doing things like watching videos etc., then there can effectively be interference and bandwith hogging by one unit at the expense of the others. I don't know how sophisticated modern routers are compared with earlier ones.

      Up to a few years ago I always assumed that wireless connections in a building would be inferior to some wired connections. I do still believe that to be true compared to direct wired ethernet cable, but in one location I was surprised to discover that wi-fi was able to deliver similar data rates to wired powerline links to a router - around 30 mbps in each case. Direct high quality ethernet cables should be able to provide much higher data rates, if the connected equipment is capable of working at higher rates.

      Comment

      • Quarky
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 2672

        #4
        Obviously mobile phone networks and Wi- Fi have their respective standards, although I note that beam forming is now written into the the Wi - Fi standards - although the benefits seem marginal:: https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wire...ng-really-work

        Other than that, using a mobile phone as a hot spot for a particularly difficult area?

        Comment

        • cloughie
          Full Member
          • Dec 2011
          • 22180

          #5
          I had a Belkin extender which worked fine until I updated my router and then whatever I tried I could not retune to the new router, and since I have managed without.

          Comment

          • Richard Barrett
            Guest
            • Jan 2016
            • 6259

            #6
            I have one, it works fine.

            Comment

            • Stunsworth
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 1553

              #7
              A friend in France uses one to have access to his neighbours Wi-Fi. With their consent of course
              Steve

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              • Anastasius
                Full Member
                • Mar 2015
                • 1860

                #8
                Yes. Zen Fritz!Box Mesh network. Impeccable. Does exactly what it says on the tin. Flawless. Laughs at microwave cookers trying to mess things up. Laughs at thick Georgian internal walls trying to mess things up. Ditto internal rooms replastered using foil-backed plasterboard which usually kills wi-fi stone dead.
                Fewer Smart things. More smart people.

                Comment

                • Lordgeous
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2012
                  • 831

                  #9
                  I have a simple little TP Link and an excellent free app on my phone which measures the strength of the WiFi signal around my house. I can see the difference turning it on or off makes. Before that I bought another make which I couldnt get to work at all!

                  Comment

                  • Dave2002
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 18034

                    #10
                    I use Netspot on my PowerBook to check WiFi signal strength. Currently showing -50 dB or worse to the EE router in the next room. Netspot is showing the EE router is an Arcadyan. I have no idea whether they are really any good - though I did think it was slightly better than the previous BT Hub.

                    I wasn't convinced that the TP-Link extender was working with the new router - or that I'd set it up correctly using the WPS method.
                    I suppose I could have tried to get more info by using Netspot to check it - but my gut feeling has been that it wasn't bringing much to the party, so currently reverted to just using the router in vanilla mode.

                    Comment

                    • Lordgeous
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2012
                      • 831

                      #11
                      Do you mean you walk around with the PowerBook?

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                      • Dave2002
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 18034

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Lordgeous View Post
                        Do you mean you walk around with the PowerBook?
                        No. I have mine in a secure bullet proof glass cabinet locked to a metal post which is embedded in a concrete block bolted to the floor!

                        Comment

                        • Beresford
                          Full Member
                          • Apr 2012
                          • 557

                          #13
                          I used a cheapo extender successfully to get the Post Office router signal through thick stone walls. Throughput was reduced by about 10%, not the expected 50%.
                          However the extender would not work with the new Vodafone router for fibre. I soon found out from the Vodafone message board that hardly any extenders work with this router, which is otherwise very good.
                          Resolved by moving the router to the landing, running a telephone extension cable to the router, and having no wired computer connections, or extenders.

                          Comment

                          • Lordgeous
                            Full Member
                            • Dec 2012
                            • 831

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
                            No. I have mine in a secure bullet proof glass cabinet locked to a metal post which is embedded in a concrete block bolted to the floor!
                            Haha! I meant, to check your signal! Just saying the phone app would be somewhat easier!

                            Comment

                            • Quarky
                              Full Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 2672

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Beresford View Post
                              I used a cheapo extender successfully to get the Post Office router signal through thick stone walls. Throughput was reduced by about 10%, not the expected 50%.
                              However the extender would not work with the new Vodafone router for fibre. I soon found out from the Vodafone message board that hardly any extenders work with this router, which is otherwise very good.
                              Resolved by moving the router to the landing, running a telephone extension cable to the router, and having no wired computer connections, or extenders.
                              Yes, I think this may be why my set up works so well.

                              Router up in loft, transmits signal through wooden floors - no brick walls - in fact signal may be reflected off brick walls - all to the good.

                              A possible example solution for routers pinned to the ground floor - put an extender up at the top of the house, and arrange it so that it transmits signal downwards? Worth a try?

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