Is a streamer with Qobuz worth it?

[silvestrione]

I see these reviews of network streamers or similar, and we are told they 'have' Qobuz, plus whatever similar, and I am never sure what this means. Do you still have to pay a subscription? All it means is you only have to press one button? Does the streamer 'get' it from the web itself, then, without being attached to a computer or a hub? Really, I'm wondering why this is a selling point.

And if you have one of these machines, like the one reviewed in the latest Gramophone, do you no longer need any CDs? Is everything available on Qobuz in CD quality sound or better? Does it double as a radio? Could I play the Digital Concert Hall through it? You can see I'm in the dark (or the Ark, you may want to say!).

[Stunsworth]

WRT Qobuz, it means that the streamer can, errr, stream Qobuz. You’ll still need a Qobuz account, but it will appear as a source for the streamer to stream.

Most streamers can also stream internet radio stations, but I’d doubt if it could stream the Digital Concert Hall as that’s a TV orientated thing.

The cheapest route into streaming is probably via a Raspberry Pi and suitable (free) software. I’ve no experience of that I’m afraid, though I’d be surprised if you couldn’t get all the necessary hardware and software in a pretty box for not too much money.

[richardfinegold]

Digital terminology can be very confusing. streamers generally offer up to 3 functions.
1) Internet Radio.
2) Playback of files stored on a hard drive, either from a server or connected directly to it,and
3) ability to play streaming services, which usually have the listener pay a monthly fee
As Steve indicated a software program is generally needed to control the streamer
Qobuz and Tidal, among other services, make more demands on streamers because they offfer higher resolution streams, so they are not always available on a given streamer.
The cheapest streamer of all is a Personal Computer, because most people already own one. There are programs that can be added to a PC to supply all of the functions above

[Dave2002]

Thanks Richard, for making some things clear. I assumed that having a Qobuz or a Tidal sticker on a unit (about which I know very little) would be like having a Freeview or Netflix sticker on a TV box. Sometimes that's just marketing, but sometimes there is real functionality inside the electronics. In the case of Freeview or Freesat, there is an indication that the service is compatible, and also rather a strong hint that the service is free. That is not the case with Qobuz, unless perhaps a particular brand goes into a co-branding or marketing exercise with Qobuz. In the particular case I think that the sticker indicates compatiblity, rather than direct access to services, though I also suspect that clever marketeers will have got round that by mentioning that one can register for a free trial to the services in question, and leave the customer to discover the additional charges if services are continued.

I also think the devices will be capable of standalone operation, providing one has a router installed. This is easy to forget, as of course most of us do now have some form of internet hub. In the future there might be wireless devices which will work without the need for a connected internet hub, though whether that's a good thing to have I can't say at present.

One other factor is whether the device connects to a computer. If it does, then it could probably play music files sourced from that, but then as mentioned, the computer could probably do that directly anyway. One possible benefit of having a computer connection (even a wireless - wifi one - for example using a mobile phone) might be that system set up might be easier. Some stand alone devices are a bit of a pain to set up, requiring knob twiddling and other awkward acrobatics in order to input details of services to connect to, user names and passwords. The way the software is set up and the interaction with the remote service may take several attempts to get all the details set up correctly, and can be annoying if it's difficult to do.

Also, and I almost forgot this, some units assume that one has a computer already (OK - many people will have ...) and have instructions like "register on XYZ service and then enter the code which you will receive via email into the streaming unit.

I don't know if any/many streamers have internal storage. Earlier devices, such as CD recorders could play a CD, and store the music internally to build up a library of music. I really don't know if any streamers do that, or if they have such a capability at all, they may rely on a computer for storage, or a networked storage device.

I almost forgot a new trend. Some devices may stream from data sources received by a mobile phone. That is a feature which some prospective buyers may expect nowadays, and some possible users may not have a computer, but will have mobile phones. Thus the streamer might be tethered to the phone, for some applications.

There can be several reasons why one might want a streamer. Some may offer a promise of high quality sound. They do not require a permanent link to a computer. The streamers are probably relatively low power units when in standby mode, so possibly better than having a computer on all the time. The sound quality should be largely independent of other acitivity - though if the internet service becomes slow or interrupted - then quality may suffer, or service may be unavailable.

The suggestion to use a Raspberry Pi or similar will decouple any computing activity from listening to music, but would probably require some technical expertise to set up - but it would be a low cost option - probably by a factor of at least 4 or 5 i.e. under £200 versus perhaps £1000.

[Stunsworth]

As far as I’m aware most streamers don’t have internal storage, they exist to stream music from other sources - a hard drive, Qobuz/Tidal, internet radio etc. Some don’t even have a DAC. Most would be controlled by an app on a phone or tablet.

[Dave2002]

As far as I’m aware most streamers don’t have internal storage, they exist to stream music from other sources - a hard drive, Qobuz/Tidal, internet radio etc. Some don’t even have a DAC. Most would be controlled by an app on a phone or tablet.

That would only work well for people who want to couple such a device to either an existing DAC, or want to set up their own system with an expensive DAC bought to go with the streamer.

I would expect most streamers for "regular" consumers to have an audio output of some sort, so would at least have an internal DAC even if only moderate quality, but I agree it's not a given. Some amplifiers now seem to function in this way, with most of the features an "average" user might want built in.

[richardfinegold]

My previous post attempted to describe what a bare bones server is—Internet Radio Player, receiver of files from a HD, and player of Internet streaming services. No DAC or internal storage is required to satisfy this definition.
The reality is that many streamers add other services as a convenience. Many streamers come with optional internal storage., Others add a DAC which can also be used by other digital sources. CD ripping functionality is a frequent feature Some streamers add amplification, and I know of at least one that has added a line level analog section, including a phono stage for turntables. And then to address Dave’s point about playing files from your mobile device, many have Bluetooth or AirPlay. All of this is no doubt bewildering for someone who is new to streaming, so I think it helps to have a basic concept as to what a server is (the three core functions mentioned previously) and then as a Consumer you may decide if any of the other features make sense for you.

[richardfinegold]

As previously mentioned, a PC can serve as a streamer. This isn’t a radical concept, because most digital audio components are computers that have been modified for audio playback. A Digital Audio Converter is a computer that converts a digital stream into an analog wave form. A CD player is a device that extracts the digital stream from a disc and sends it to an internal DAC. Streamers are similarly computers modified to play music from a network and from the Internet. So a PC can do all of these things already. It also does a lot of other things, like receive emails, send data to a printer, quickly calculate how many holes it would take to fill the Albert Hall, etc., and these have nothing to do with audio. These other functions introduce noise which degrade audio function and then there is the nuisance factor of being informed about the daily specials at Tesco every 5 minutes, so there are programs such as Audirvana that disable the non music playing parts of the PC, provide a GUI for browsing your collection or a streaming service, and supply an app so that you can control the PC with a mobile device
Dave, to return to your comment about stream files on a mobile device, generally streamers can’t recognize files stored on mobile devices, so Bluetooth or AirPlay is required. The phone could also be connected directly to the preamp with RCA connectors or digitally to the DAC

[silvestrione]

Very informative and fascinating. At the moment I have a small piece of kit which by using bluetooth enables me to play, e.g. Youtube and Digital Concert Hall, from my laptop through my hi fi system. So, not sure a network streamer is needed, even for Qobuz. Do they need to have a cable to the hub? that would settle the matter for me: my hub is in another room. I could look into this Audirvana.

[Dave2002]

Dave, to return to your comment about stream files on a mobile device, generally streamers can’t recognize files stored on mobile devices, so Bluetooth or AirPlay is required. The phone could also be connected directly to the preamp with RCA connectors or digitally to the DAC
All of these other functions introduce noise

Thanks for the extra information Richard. It's a bit of a can of worms - a veritable minefield really for anyone not following all of this.

Some devices use the mobile phones as a control, or a mobile device such as a tablet - e.g. iPad, and I guess some can use phones (or tablets) both as a control and as a storage device.

I think some devices which might be called digital integrated amps do most things all in one box, and might be closer to what some buyers really want - just a one box solution which does almost everything. I'm not sure if streamers as such do exactly the same thing. Then of course some also do the output end wirelessly too, the assumption (incorrect for most people) being that users will have wireless speakers with their own integrated amps.

Anyone remember radiograms? Yesteryear's one box solution.

[Stunsworth]

These other functions introduce noise which degrade audio function and then there is the nuisance factor of being informed about the daily specials at Tesco every 5 minutes, so there are programs such as Audirvana that disable the non music playing parts of the PC, provide a GUI for browsing your collection or a streaming service, and supply an app so that you can control the PC with a mobile device

I use a computer. A Mac Mini feeds the DAC, and I’m running Roon on the Mac. Roon pulls together the music on a drive attached to the Mac, Qobuz and internet radio. All of this is controlled using the excellent Roon app on an iPad or iPhone.

I’ve used Audirvana in the past and it’s very good, I just happed to prefer the way Roon merges by own music and Qobuz favourites into a single library.

[Dave2002]

Very informative and fascinating. At the moment I have a small piece of kit which by using bluetooth enables me to play, e.g. Youtube and Digital Concert Hall, from my laptop through my hi fi system. So, not sure a network streamer is needed, even for Qobuz. Do they need to have a cable to the hub? that would settle the matter for me: my hub is in another room. I could look into this Audirvana.

I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to use Qobuz from your laptop - and I think you can get a trial easily. You could also try Tidal. If you can receive them on your laptop, and you have a means of sending the output to your hi fi, then unless the software somehow gets in the way and stops it happening, you should be able to access those sources perfectly well from your laptop. Can you also blast BBC Sounds between your rooms?

Give those a try!

[gradus]

Why not download the streaming app to your android/iphone and buy a Chromecast Audio, total cost c£25. It sounds fine to me on Quad ELS/Quad amps. I don't doubt there are technical compromises in something so simple but Qobuz, Primephonic and Spotify sound ok to me using this set up.

[richardfinegold]

Why not download the streaming app to your android/iphone and buy a Chromecast Audio, total cost c£25. It sounds fine to me on Quad ELS/Quad amps. I don't doubt there are technical compromises in something so simple but Qobuz, Primephonic and Spotify sound ok to me using this set up.

I thought Google killed Chromecast Audio in 2019

[richardfinegold]

Very informative and fascinating. At the moment I have a small piece of kit which by using bluetooth enables me to play, e.g. Youtube and Digital Concert Hall, from my laptop through my hi fi system. So, not sure a network streamer is needed, even for Qobuz. Do they need to have a cable to the hub? that would settle the matter for me: my hub is in another room. I could look into this Audirvana.

I am assuming that the small piece of kit is a Bluetooth receiver
Don’t wish to be redundant, but a PC is a form of a streamer, and you are there. If Bluetooth is adequate for your needs then just add the Qobuz app to your laptop. If you want something that sounds better and you don’t mind having the PC tethered by a wire to your audio system, get a DAC, probably one with a USB input to attach to the computer, then connect the DAC via analog cables to your amplification. Audirvana or Roon are both excellent programs for managing the whole shebang.
I recently bought an Audioengine Bluetooth DAC. I just realized that it has a usb input so presumably I can use it with my PC and not be confined to Bluetooth. I will have to give that a try