Music Servers - help, advice needed!

[HighlandDougie]

John B's post on the 'Listening Gear' thread where he mentions an HP microserver, coupled with a growing number of hi-res digital music files which are outstripping the capacity of my MacBook Pro, has prodded me into seeking the advice of the knowledgeable folks on the forum as I freely admit that the world of music servers is pretty much a mystery to me.

At present I use Audirvana on a MacBook Pro, connected by a decent USB cable to a Mytek Brooklyn DAC+. I have files stored in various external hard disks which I would like to consolidate in one place and, if possible, cease to use the MacBook Pro for any form of music storage or playback (using the computer for work tasks like writing reports/papers or creating spreadsheets while listening to music stored on it sometimes leads to a degree of interference on the music playback). Someone has suggested something like this:

http://www.innuos.com/en/catalog/go/zen-mk3-1tb-hdd-black

with iPeng featuring somewhere. My naive questions include: if I download a file using the MacBook onto the desktop, how do I then transfer that to the Zenith or similar server? can I use either an iPad, the MacBook or an iPhone to control the server? and so on.

Does anyone have any experience of Innuos servers or does anyone have any recommendations, keeping it all simple as possible? I don't want to spend megabucks but am prepared to eat twigs and grass for a couple of months to get something that sounds more than half-decent. Along with the Mytek DAC, I use ATC SCM40 speakers, a Marantz PM14-S1 SE integrated amp and Chord Signature XL cables/interconnects.

[johnb]

There are probably as many "solutions" as there are people who reply. Most of us base our opinions on what we are familiar with, and I am no exception.

I've looked at the information for the Zen box you gave a link to. It is an interesting box but I am in two minds about it - on the one hand it seems to be a user friendly, relatively compact, one box solution. On the other hand you are paying a definite premium and there might be some restriction in flexibility, e.g. m4a and mp4 are not included in the list of supported formats.

Basically it seems to be a low power computer, complete with CD drive, running the linux Vortexbox distribution. The music server aspect is catered for by Logitech Media Server (LMS), which IMO is very good indeed (I use it all the time). iPeng (on an iPad) is probably be best controller app for LMS and is a pleasure to use.

The audio outputs seem to be restricted to USB (so if it used as a "player" rather than a streamer it will need a DAC with a USB input). Correction: looking at the photos of the Zen Mk3 it has coax and optical digital, and analogue outputs. If it is used to stream to a separate player it would have to be wired to the network (or to a wireless bridge) as there doesn't appear to be any WiFi built in.

There is the issue of ripping CDs and their tagging (which is very important indeed) but as I am very familiar with LMS I'll just make a few comments about that aspect of the box.

LMS is basically a very flexible software music server. It can deal with a very wide range of formats and also has a very wide range of plugins, most of which are actively supported by dedicated third party developers.

To get the best out of LMS the tagging needs to be thought through and systematic.

One thing I would want to find out is which version of LMS is being used. That is important because the current versions, 7.9.x, are very significantly better than the version in use (7.7.6) when Logitech stopped production of the Squeezebox range in 2012. (The continued, active development of LMS has been mainly done by a Logitech software engineer.)

The flexibility of LMS depends on a wide variety of plugins, e.g. iPlayer, Qobuz, Spotify, to name just three. So I would want know whether users can install the plugins they need or if the plugins are restricted to what is installed at the outset. If that is the case - does the system include all the plugins you need? (There is a reason why Innuous might have restricted the ability to activate plugins - it is easy for someone to install a whole plethora of plugins and get themselves into a bit of a mess.)

Also, are there facilities for users to easily update the version of LMS running on the box, without using the linux command line (which I use myself).

The processor in the box, an Intel Quad Core N4200, doesn't seem very powerful and that might restrict some aspects of LMS.

[HighlandDougie]

John

Thanks. That's very helpful. I need to investigate alternative boxes/servers. And try and get my head round it all!

[johnb]

Well, out of curiosity I have emailed them asking what version of LMS is installed, whether it is possible to update it (even by using linux terminal commands), whether the plugins are restricted and mentioning that iPlayer, Qobuz and Spotify are important to me.

[richardfinegold]

John B's post on the 'Listening Gear' thread where he mentions an HP microserver, coupled with a growing number of hi-res digital music files which are outstripping the capacity of my MacBook Pro, has prodded me into seeking the advice of the knowledgeable folks on the forum as I freely admit that the world of music servers is pretty much a mystery to me.

At present I use Audirvana on a MacBook Pro, connected by a decent USB cable to a Mytek Brooklyn DAC+. I have files stored in various external hard disks which I would like to consolidate in one place and, if possible, cease to use the MacBook Pro for any form of music storage or playback (using the computer for work tasks like writing reports/papers or creating spreadsheets while listening to music stored on it sometimes leads to a degree of interference on the music playback). Someone has suggested something like this:

http://www.innuos.com/en/catalog/go/zen-mk3-1tb-hdd-black

with iPeng featuring somewhere. My naive questions include: if I download a file using the MacBook onto the desktop, how do I then transfer that to the Zenith or similar server? can I use either an iPad, the MacBook or an iPhone to control the server? and so on.

Does anyone have any experience of Innuos servers or does anyone have any recommendations, keeping it all simple as possible? I don't want to spend megabucks but am prepared to eat twigs and grass for a couple of months to get something that sounds more than half-decent. Along with the Mytek DAC, I use ATC SCM40 speakers, a Marantz PM14-S1 SE integrated amp and Chord Signature XL cables/interconnects.

So as I understand it, the OP main problem is that he has multiple HDs and wants to consolidate, and he also wants to free up his Mac from being a Music server. I would consolidate all of the files onto a single Network Associated Server (NAS). The advantage of this then you can play with multiple servers, many of which are cheaper than Innuos. If you transfer all of the files a an HD contained within a server such as Innuos and then you wish to change servers for some reason, you are stuck. With a NAS you have flexibility, and if you have a second system in another room you don’t need a HD in that room.
I would start with a Synology NAS with the MinimServer software, unless you really are wedded to I ping, which I don’t know anything about. Try it first with your Mac, to get a feel for the sound. Next, I would get a Bluesound Node2i, an inexpensive streamer that will play high res files. You may be happy and stop there or you might want to upgrade as funds allow.
If that doesn’t interest you consider the Melco N100, which has 2TB storage and uses both MinimServer and SongKong, reportedly
excellent Software Management for large Classical Collections.
If you do buy Innuos, or Aurender, or Naim, or the Bluesound Vault2, all servers with contained HDs, then don’t fret, as you will have an excellent sounding gear. As johnb says, there are many solutions. IMO the NAS solution is a good mix of flexibility and value for money

[muzzer]

I grappled with this issue last year, and I sympathise, it’s a massive PITA compared to listening to a record, which of course guarantees you exercise every 22 1/2 minutes in getting up to turn it over ;)

Nb do NOT buy a Musical Fidelity Encore.

The main thing to decide is whether or not you want to be able to rip CDs, as this function drives ( ho ho ) what to look at. I can’t speak to the boxes listed above. I have a Nova Fidelity X45 (called Cocktail Audio outside the U.K.) to which I fitted a 4tb drive, with a view to ripping in FLAC as many of my CDs as I get round to. You can also add files via USB and also I believe browser, or use an external NAS as a source. It has tidal, qobuz and Amazon. The indexing of tracks works. It sounds great, though I upgraded my amp at the same time so that might be what made the difference. Good luck!

[johnb]

I second Richard's suggestion about using a NAS for much greater flexibility. (Don't forget to also use an external HDD to backup the data on your NAS though.)

As an example of doing the same thing as the Zen box, but cheaper and with more flexibility, Synology has official (and unofficial) versions of LMS to install on their NAS boxes.

So one could get a Synology NAS, install LMS on it (either 7.7.6 from Synology's own addons or 7.9.2 from an unofficial source), that would stream music to a LMS compatible player linked to your audio system. Those players can be anything from cheap and cheerful RaspPi based, to a more expensive RaspPi based box, say £250, to a relatively high end box with squeezelite options (£1000 and up).

I'm not advocating you use a LMS based system (even though I am a devotee). I'm just illustrating other methods of doing exactly the same thing as the Zen box does but more flexibly and cheaper.

(One could even do the same thing by installing LMS on an old disused laptop with an external HDD attached.)

[johnb]

Earlier I mentioned that I had emailed Innuos with a couple of questions about the Zen Mk3. I'm quite impressed that they replied today.

The version of LMS that they use is 7.9.2 (the latest) - which is good.

The plugins for BBC Radio, Tidal, Spotify and Qobuz are pre-enabled but plugins which they haven't verified cannot be installed, which seems a sensible approach.

It is still worth considering the reservations and other suggestions mentioned in the thread. To pays your money and takes your choice, I suppose.

[HighlandDougie]

Dear All

Many thanks for the insights and suggestions. While taken with the idea of a single box (acknowledging all the disadvantages if it decides to go kaput), I also need to work out the physical logistics as my study (which is where it would be located) is not very near the router. Anyway, a work in progress on which I’ll report back in due course.

[Dave2002]

Dear All

Many thanks for the insights and suggestions. While taken with the idea of a single box (acknowledging all the disadvantages if it decides to go kaput), I also need to work out the physical logistics as my study (which is where it would be located) is not very near the router. Anyway, a work in progress on which I’ll report back in due course.

I think there are also issues about how much work you want to put in.

Some people elsewhere are using Raspberry Pi devices with storage devices - and seem happy with those - probably running LMS.

Re connectivity, you can use wireless or powerline connections, though I suspect you might prefer "proper" wired links. I have had varied results with wired links, wireless and powerline connections. I am 99% certain that for the best results you'd need wired connections, but if you can tolerate some mild degradation, then powerline or wireless might actually work most of the time. Unless you try you won't find out. If you need to move data rapidly, then wired is definitely the way to go, but for streaming, once the server has been set up other connection modes may work well enough. The same may not be so likely to be true for HD video, though.

You may need a high speed link for backup purposes to another storage device in a different location.

Wiring might require drilling through walls and ceilings, and planning a cable route, and possibly needing a considerable length of cable.

If the data storage requirements are for locally stored files, it might be simplest to make up a small Raspberry Pi Unit, with appropriate storage, and just physically locate it close to where it is needed, and it could be compact and cheap enough to be viable. Do you actually need to connect to anything else? That won't work if you are using external streaming services, though.

Good luck with that.

[richardfinegold]

I just made the decision to swap my Bryston BDP3 streamer for a Melco Server/Streamer. The main reason for this is the Music File management software. As will be familiar to most of us who have tried to burn any CDs to any HD, the music management systems are geared to pop, and while one can edit the files, it is a time consuming and often frustrating process, and with a large CD collection it just isn’t feasible.
Melco is touting their current management system (a combination of Minim Server and SongKong) as being geared to CM, and after watching a few You Tube Videos it does look a lot more promising. Melco dealers are thin on the ground here and I am dealing with a vendor in Connecticut.
He seems like a stand up guy with great reviews from the site, and he is giving me a fair credit value for the Bryston, but still I always wish that I had a real person in front of me,.
The Bryston was a mistake. I still enjoy playing CDs, and the only reason that I wish to move them to a HD is that in a few years I anticipate we will be moving to smaller digs and I don’t want to clog the new place with my collection (I will still have SACDS and Blu Rays to store). My first streamer is Bluesound, which is reasonably priced, will stream high resolution recordings, but I had some reliability issues. The Bryston sounds far better, has been more reliable, but the Manic Moose program is terrible. I can in most cases go to my shelves and find the relevant CD before I can locate it in Bipolar Bison.
The Melco comes with a 3TB HD and that should be adequate for a while. Regrettably it’s software is proprietary, which means that if I want to expand my HD I need to buy Melco HDs and daisy chain them. My current NAS will therefore not benefit from this, but there are versions of MinimServer and SongKong for Synology NAS, although only for Linux based and mine is not. Otoh, maybe I can use the NAS for other purposes, such as digizing our personal papers, which would also cut down on the amount of tonnage that we would have to move when the time comes.
Anyway, I thought that posting this here might give prospective Music Server purchasers food for thought

[muzzer]

Yes the proprietary software in these boxes which means you can’t export your stored library to another box is most inconvenient.

[johnb]

I just made the decision to swap my Bryston BDP3 streamer for a Melco Server/Streamer. The main reason for this is the Music File management software.
...
The Bryston sounds far better, has been more reliable, but the Manic Moose program is terrible.
...
Regrettably it’s software is proprietary, which means that if I want to expand my HD I need to buy Melco HDs and daisy chain them.

Am I right in thinking that these Melco HDs cost £1000 for a 3TB HDD?

I agree that the user interface and the ease with which you can select what you want to play is extremely important and is something that is regularly overlooked. Of course, it depends on the tagging and tagging system adopted as well as the design of the interface software.

Even though you are very unlikely to be interested, as I understand it, Bryston's Manic Moose has the option to be set up as a LMS (Logitech Media Server) player using Squeezelite and that this (i.e. Squeezelite) can be selected in the Services menu. IMO the LMS user interface on an iPad is very good indeed, the following link shows some screen grabs from my iPad.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y20nl8fojn6e0wd/AADvzXeZdXRsZmYbwPWP63Uqa?dl=0

(Apologies for banging on about LMS.)

[richardfinegold]

Am I right in thinking that these Melco HDs cost £1000 for a 3TB HDD?

I agree that the user interface and the ease with which you can select what you want to play is extremely important and is something that is regularly overlooked. Of course, it depends on the tagging and tagging system adopted as well as the design of the interface software.

Even though you are very unlikely to be interested, as I understand it, Bryston's Manic Moose has the option to be set up as a LMS (Logitech Media Server) player using Squeezelite and that this (i.e. Squeezelite) can be selected in the Services menu. IMO the LMS user interface on an iPad is very good indeed, the following link shows some screen grabs from my iPad.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y20nl8fojn6e0wd/AADvzXeZdXRsZmYbwPWP63Uqa?dl=0

(Apologies for banging on about LMS.)

The Melcos indeed cost that for a HDD. At the moment I am getting the server/renderer unit with 3 TB fit in, which runs about $3600 from this dealer. I spent a bit more than that on the Bryston, have had it for about a year and a half, and getting about $2500 for it and the dealer is throwing in the Melco optical drive burner, so it's reasonable. THat extra $1K for additional 3 TB HDs did giveme cause for pause, so I will fill up ther first 3TB and see what happens.
THe LMS interface looks interesting. I had used Squeezebox back in the day when Logitech Supported it and this looks a heck of a lot more advanced. Maybe I can put it on my NAS and manage those files. Regarding using the Bryston with squeezelite, or any other software, I frightened off by negative comments in the Bryston Circle on Audiocircle, and Bryston didn't answer my queries about this (I was thinking of putting Minim Server and Song KOng on my NAS, but have already had an email exchange with one person that said the BDP3 didn't play to nice that way.

[johnb]

It's a pity that the Bryston has issues. They have a very good reputation, but reputations are easier to lose than to build up.

I see they have a new box that effectively combines the Pi streamer with the BDA 3 together with a volume control so it can be used without a pre-amp. BUT it seems that the volume control is purely digital and probably less than ideal.

Yes, the current version of LMS is markedly better than it was at the time Logitech discontinued the product range. The iPeng/iPad controller is also pretty good IMO. Of course much depends on the tagging.