Windows 7 - after January

[Dave2002]

I've just seen the price of a replacement for my Windows 7 Dell XPS 15" i7 laptop, which has been very reliable for many years - c.£1600-2000 !
It looked briefly as though the price was going to be more in line with what I'd paid previously (+ inflation), but the dreaded VAT was tacked on only at the very end of Dell's checkout procedure.

What to do? Soldier on as if nothing is going to happen? Swallow and pay up immediately after Christmas family expenditure? Converting to Win10 isn't an option with the old processor. The (enforced commercial) demise of Win7 is such a nuisance as it offers all I need and I'm so used to its comforts; I prefer it to Win10 on our desktop. So it looks as though yet another laptop will be joining a pile of half a dozen others with a variety of ailments. And have I transferred all useful files and photos from all of those? Nope.

Alternatively - Armenian Christmas is coming up on the 6th... I could ask Mrs K very nicely to put it on her list.

Whatever you do - that's up to you.

Have you thought what you need the computer for? Do you use it for work? Do you need a portable machine - 15" laptops are on the margins of portability, IMO, but it depends ....

Do you need a computer for specific software? Do you need a powerful machine? Do you need your device to be compatible with other systems? Do you need to run any legacy software?

The machine I'm typing this on is a Macbook Pro dating from around 2013. It has an i7 processor and a 13 inch screen. It was around £1500 when I bought it, and I have had one battery changed - costing about £200.

If you're not completely wedded to Windows, do consider Apple - though you would not get such a large laptop for as little as as the Dell you are mentioning. See the 16 inch MacBook Pro - cheapest at JL currently £2399.

A reasonable 13 inch model with 256GB of SSD is currently £1499 at JL - there is one cheaper one, but with only 128GB of SSD.

JL do have some reasonable laptops from last year at around £1300 - see for examplle https://www.johnlewis.com/2018-apple...b-ssd/p3649154

Many machines now use the i5 processor, with multiple cores, so I'm not sure that you really need an i7. If you're not working with graphics or video, I think many computers can now handle the processing load - though I do know what it's worth having SSDs, more memory, more backup storage etc. if you plan on doing any video work. Audio is much less demanding.

I know people who are sticking with PCs and Windows - and justifiably so. These may be people who are using XP or Win 7 - because they have specific software packages which run on those systems. Either the software is not available for the newer systems, or is prohibitively expensive. One is a pilot, who has navigation software which he considers essential.

Lastly - consider dual or multi-boot operation on a new machine. Not everyone realises perhaps that it's possible to run Windows on Apple machines - and it works well enough.

If you stick with the Dell, you may decide it's not so unreasonably priced compared with similarly powerful alternatives, but don't rush into it. There are many low priced PCs which may work for some people - though I've had a low priced PC laptop before and it just wasn't powerful enough, and effectively lasted me about 2 years.

I do still have a working one of these - which cost about £1500 in 1997. https://everymac.com/systems/apple/p...1400c_133.html By today's standards it is horrendously slow, has a lousy screen, and is quite heavy. I haven't powered that on for the last year or so, and I took several similar ones which I picked up cheaply to the dump not so long ago.
Almost all laptops these days are better than that.

We also paid about £1500 for an 11 inch lightweight (weight was important then) Dell portable laptop around 2004. At the time it was pretty much state of the art for PCs. I'm not sure that it boots up any more - it became very difficult mainly due to software issues.

Good luck, whatever you choose, though might be worth doing a comprehensive evalation of what you want, and what might actually suit your requirements.

[Beresford]

I've just seen the price of a replacement for my Windows 7 Dell XPS 15" i7 laptop, which has been very reliable for many years - c.£1600-2000 !
It looked briefly as though the price was going to be more in line with what I'd paid previously (+ inflation), but the dreaded VAT was tacked on only at the very end of Dell's checkout procedure.

What to do? Soldier on as if nothing is going to happen? Swallow and pay up immediately after Christmas family expenditure? Converting to Win10 isn't an option with the old processor. The (enforced commercial) demise of Win7 is such a nuisance as it offers all I need and I'm so used to its comforts; I prefer it to Win10 on our desktop. .

Do you really need to replace it now? If you don't open dodgy email attachments, or use the dark web, your W7 laptop may work for another 10 years. And if you have done yearly full disc backups ( or just data if you are happy to change to W10) backups, you will lose very little.
How old is the laptop? If it has a 64 bit processor, it will almost certainly run W10, should you so wish.

And new laptops tend to be significantly cheaper in Summer.

[Dave2002]

Do you really need to replace it now? If you don't open dodgy email attachments, or use the dark web, your W7 laptop may work for another 10 years. And if you have done yearly full disc backups ( or just data if you are happy to change to W10) backups, you will lose very little.
How old is the laptop? If it has a 64 bit processor, it will almost certainly run W10, should you so wish.

And new laptops tend to be significantly cheaper in Summer.

Reasonable comments - though sometimes there is a real need to update. One Apple machine I looked at, which was being used in a work environment, became so difficult that eventually it was replaced.

Symptoms got worse and worse, sometimes after visiting possibly dodgy web sites, and sometime for no apparent reason. The fan control got worse, and the machine started to overheat. We did update the OS and the memory, after which it settled down for a bit, but in the end I think the replacement by a new machine was the only sensible answer. Arguably there was a budget saving for about a year.

Also, avoiding problems is not always possible, depending on who uses the machine. Some users just do not understand which programs are going to work, and which not.

You are right to suggest not rushing into a replacement purchase though - but options do need to be considered.

[Bryn]

Do you really need to replace it now? If you don't open dodgy email attachments, or use the dark web, your W7 laptop may work for another 10 years. And if you have done yearly full disc backups ( or just data if you are happy to change to W10) backups, you will lose very little.
How old is the laptop? If it has a 64 bit processor, it will almost certainly run W10, should you so wish.

And new laptops tend to be significantly cheaper in Summer.

I would echo those comments. A couple of years or so ago I bought a little Acer notepad with a Celeron processor and but 32 GB of memory. It came with Windows 10 but after a few updates, it hit a problem. It had insufficient internal memory to handle the updates. However, Microsoft was, for once, on the case. An option was introduced to permit the use of a USB memory stick as additional memory for the upgrade. It is surprising just how many low spec computers can use and update Windows 10. For those worried about its bloatware properties, even the technically challenged have ready assistance available via features on slimming down Windows 10 in such magazines as Computer Active. The first new issue of 2020 was scheduled to include and item on safely continuing to use Windows 7, by the way. I have not yet had the opportunity to browse it in the local Sainsbury store yet. The previous issue's cover feature was "Master Windows 10 in 2020. I would assume that everything in such features can be found on the Internet but such magazines are likely to be of use to those with only a minimal understanding of what they need to know about the relative advantages and disadvantages of Windows 7 and 10.

[MrGongGong]

Why would anyone buy a new machine in the first place ?
You can get great refurbished ones for a fraction of the price and much higher specs

[Dave2002]

Why would anyone buy a new machine in the first place ?
You can get great refurbished ones for a fraction of the price and much higher specs

I have bought several new machines, but over a long period. I have also “acquired” machines, either free, or very low price, but I have been fortunate. I also don’t generally play the full list price. I’m not sure where one would go in commercial markets to get good refurbished/second hand units.

[MrGongGong]

I have bought several new machines, but over a long period. I have also “acquired” machines, either free, or very low price, but I have been fortunate. I also don’t generally play the full list price. I’m not sure where one would go in commercial markets to get good refurbished/second hand units.

These people are good IMV

https://www.hoxtonmacs.co.uk

as are these

https://www.macupgrades.co.uk/store/index.php?cPath=56

I don't do Windows any more (apart from on a dual boot macbook) so don't know about Windows machines

[Keraulophone]

Have you thought what you need the computer for? Do you use it for work? Do you need a portable machine - 15" laptops are on the margins of portability, IMO, but it depends ....

Do you need a computer for specific software? Do you need a powerful machine? Do you need your device to be compatible with other systems? Do you need to run any legacy software?

Thank you all for useful advice. I generally use my 15" laptop as a 'portable desktop' for use around the house. I never travel with it. I need sufficient power and speed to cope with photo and video editing, and there's a lot of Win7 software on my current laptop, eg an earlier non-subscription version of Adobe Photoshop which is still perfectly useable but unobtainable today.

The only Apple product I use is a 12.9" iPad Pro which I use as a piano music library to perch on a home-made wooden stand which rests on the iron frame of a Bösendorfer 170, having removed the music desk which otherwise blocks much of the direct sound from the player. I would prefer to continue with Windows, having begun in 1998 with Win95 IIRC on my first desktop.

I tend to buy well made stuff that lasts rather than go for cheap deals on refurbs or lower spec models which generally have a shorter useful life. E.g. my 1998 Audi A4 2.4 V6 is still going strong in its 22nd year!

>> Do you really need to replace it now? If you don't open dodgy email attachments, or use the dark web, your W7 laptop may work for another 10 years. And if you have done yearly full disc backups ( or just data if you are happy to change to W10) backups, you will lose very little. How old is the laptop? If it has a 64 bit processor, it will almost certainly run W10, should you so wish. <<

Hi Beresford, that's what I've been wanting to hear, but the use of the word 'may' is obviously a bit worrying: I suspect that without regular updates, Win7 would become flakey and the machine unreliable within a few years. It is 64-bit, but I've been advised that its early-generation i7 chip is inadequate to run Win10. Because the HDD is now 90% full, I've started to offload the largest files; the relatively small hard drive is only a minor inconvenience.

Having played around with a machine in PC World, I get the impression that a new XPS 15 with SDD and the latest processor running Win10 is far faster that what I am used to, and would be particularly useful in photo-video-audio processing applications.

I think I may just have to save up and revisit the shop...

[Dave2002]

The only Apple product I use is a 12.9" iPad Pro which I use as a piano music library to perch on a home-made wooden stand which rests on the iron frame of a Bösendorfer 170, having removed the music desk which otherwise blocks much of the direct sound from the player. I would prefer to continue with Windows, having begun in 1998 with Win95 IIRC on my first desktop.

I tend to buy well made stuff that lasts rather than go for cheap deals on refurbs or lower spec models which generally have a shorter useful life. E.g. my 1998 Audi A4 2.4 V6 is still going strong in its 22nd year!

If your only Apple experience is using an iPad Pro (I’m typing this on one) you are missing out. IMO the iPads, convenient though they can be sometimes, are also a disaster re software. The computers, both desktop and laptops, are better, and I still think that on the whole Apple software (or software written for Apple) is much better than Microsoft’s.

Every time I go near a Windows system I seem to see hoards of people trying to get it to work. Usually people can’t get projectors to work with it, so meetings usually start 15 minutes later than scheduled. If I turn up with my Apple laptop, I just plug in the HDMI cable, and import any data (e.g. internet or USB stick) and have things running in a couple of minutes.

I’m not saying that Apple OSs are perfect, or that all Windows software is rubbish, but I think that Apple proper computers are a simpler can of worms to deal with than the nightmare of Windows. However, what kind of mind thought up the “file” system for iPads - should be sent directly to Room 101 - and I’m amazed to hear that some people find this easier (until they hit problems ...) than trying to understand a hierarchical file system.

It is possible to have the best of all worlds by using an Apple computer either with a multi boot system (e.g.Bootcamp) or virtual desktop software, such as Parallels. There are also some quite expensive pre-installed configurations from 3rd party vendors which have Windows and Apple OSs, though these tend to be high power multi-core/multi-processor-machines for pro use.

[johnb]

....
Hi Beresford, that's what I've been wanting to hear, but the use of the word 'may' is obviously a bit worrying: I suspect that without regular updates, Win7 would become flakey and the machine unreliable within a few years. It is 64-bit, but I've been advised that its early-generation i7 chip is inadequate to run Win10. Because the HDD is now 90% full, I've started to offload the largest files; the relatively small hard drive is only a minor inconvenience.

Having played around with a machine in PC World, I get the impression that a new XPS 15 with SDD and the latest processor running Win10 is far faster that what I am used to, and would be particularly useful in photo-video-audio processing applications.

I think I may just have to save up and revisit the shop...

Just a few thoughts:

If your HDD is 90% full you really need to offload files to an external HDD.

If you decide to retain your existing XPS and continue using Windows 7 it isn't that the loss of updates will necessarily make it more flakey over time but that it will be susceptible to further vulnerabilities that are uncovered in Windows 7. (Your anti-virus and Malwarebytes will not necessarily help in that respect). I would ensure that you take regular "image" type backups to a sufficiently large external HDD using reliable backup software such as Macrium or Acronis True Image. (And make sure you have both a Windows 7 and a Macrium/Acronis boot recovery CD/USB stick.)

You say that you have been advised that your early generation i7 chip is inadequate to run W10. Well, the eight year old desktop that I "upgraded" to W10 a few days ago has a first generation i7 desktop chip (870) and it runs W10 very well indeed.

It *might* well be that the chip in your XPS won't support W10 but I would be wary of a generalisation that early i7 chips are inadequate. However, you might (and probably would) need to update the drivers in your XPS, probably from the driver manufacturer's website. You would also have to clear a sizeable chunk of your HDD to make room for the W10 installation. (Also it would be a good idea to make a full image-type backup of your system before proceeding. I "upgraded" to W10 free of charge using the official Microsoft tools but there is no guarantee that Microsoft will continue enabling that to happen - so you might have to buy a W10 licence.

As for buying a new XPS, it all depends on how confident you are but I tend to avoid places like PC World when buying a PC. Is there any reason you prefer buying from them than direct from Dell?

[MrGongGong]

I tend to buy well made stuff that lasts rather than go for cheap deals on refurbs or lower spec models which generally have a shorter useful life. E.g. my 1998 Audi A4 2.4 V6 is still going strong in its 22nd year!
.

Before I moved to using Mac machines I had a top spec Sony laptop, very nice until it died.
Buying a well made machine makes perfect sense ... (hence the old Volvo and Mackie desk as opposed to the Citroen and Bheringer ones that died far too soon) which is why I would never buy a new one these days and the build quality of Macbooks is much much better than any Windows machine I have encountered.

[Dave2002]

Not sure whether this should go here, or in the main Jokes section.

[johnb]

Although it is a bit late in the conversation, in order to respond to Keraulophone's predicament we should have asked for further information, such as:

- Would you actually want to "upgrade" your current XPS to W10 if it was possible - bearing in mind that you would probably need to install some new drivers - usually not that difficult as long as they are available from the original suppliers (i.e. they are unlikely to be available from Dell)?

- How old is your XPS?

- Who advised you that the processor in your XPS wasn't suitable for running W10? If it was staff at PC World I would treat their opinion with some caution and do further research. (The desktop PC I "upgraded" has a 1st generation Intel Core i7 870 and it runs just as well as it did with W7.)

- What is the chip in your XPS? (From memory, in W7 - click on Start, Control Panel, System & Maintenance, System)

- What is the model number of your XPS?

- What is the size of your hard drive and your RAM?

I'm not saying that knowing all that will enable anyone to definitely advise you but at least we would have some knowledge about your system.

[Bryn]

Although it is a bit late in the conversation, in order to respond to Keraulophone's predicament we should have asked for further information, such as:

- Would you actually want to "upgrade" your current XPS to W10 if it was possible - bearing in mind that you would probably need to install some new drivers - usually not that difficult as long as they are available from the original suppliers (i.e. they are unlikely to be available from Dell)?

- How old is your XPS?

- Who advised you that the processor in your XPS wasn't suitable for running W10? If it was staff at PC World I would treat their opinion with some caution and do further research. (The desktop PC I "upgraded" as a 1st generation Intel Core i7 870 and it runs just as well as it did with W7.)

- What is the chip in your XPS? (From memory, in W7 - click on Start, Control Panel, System & Maintenance, System)

- What is the model number of your XPS?

- What is the size of your hard drive and your RAM?

I'm not saying that knowing all that will enable anyone to definitely advise you but at least we would have some knowledge about your system.

I would just add that since W10 runs well enough on a Celeron notepad with a mere 32GB eMMC and 2GB RAM (I also have it running on a couple of early i3) processor machines) it sould present no problems to an early i7 processor.

[johnb]

I would be interested to know how the preloaded and raw install versions of W10 compare, after a few weeks use. Should be the same, but preloaded is often accused of preloading bloatware as well.

Just a few impressions after moving to Windows 10:

- I was expecting significant changes when I "upgraded" from W7 to W10 but have been very pleasantly surprised. All my programmes (some dating back to 2003) and command line utilities work as before.

- The windows desktop is identical to what it was in W7.

- The only slight irritant was that the Start Menu panel would appear whenever I logged in (easily closed by clicking on the desktop). But even that can be prevented by right clicking the Start button and selecting the shutdown options (instead of left clicking the Start button). Incidentally, the menu that is shown when right clicking on the Start button is very useful.

- The Windows settings have been moved around and given a "make-over" but even some of those are very similar to W7.

- The Start menu is a bit of a dog's breakfast but is usable and the tiles can be set as small and the whole thing can be avoided when logging on.

Even as a last ditch W7 user who doesn't like change, so far I can't see anything much to object to in W10 (apart from the update policy - which puts all the control in the hands of Microsoft).

As far as the upgraded W10 and the pre-installed W10 they function exactly the same, of course. There are more unnecessary apps with the preinstalled on laptop but not overwhelmingly so (the laptop is targeted at the business sector so probably has less bloat-ware than consumer laptops).