Dynamic Range and amplifier power

[gradus]

Watching some of the audio videos on youtube, I am reminded of what seems to be a fundamental difference between US and UK audio, namely the relatively huge power capacity that is favoured by US audiophiles for their 'high-end 'systems. In particular it seems to be held that it is desirable to approach the dynamic range of a live symphony orchestra one should not scale-down the performance of equipment to what is practicable in a domestic environment but rather aim to approach the dynamic range of a live event by deploying mind-boggling wattage - 2 kw or more of power - so as to give the dynamic headroom necessary. I've never heard a domestic system configured in this way but have others and if so does the reproduced sound actually sound more like a symphony orchestra given that the listener is in a domestic space? I am sceptical but uninformed, can anyone help?

[richardfinegold]

Watching some of the audio videos on youtube, I am reminded of what seems to be a fundamental difference between US and UK audio, namely the relatively huge power capacity that is favoured by US audiophiles for their 'high-end 'systems. In particular it seems to be held that it is desirable to approach the dynamic range of a live symphony orchestra one should not scale-down the performance of equipment to what is practicable in a domestic environment but rather aim to approach the dynamic range of a live event by deploying mind-boggling wattage - 2 kw or more of power - so as to give the dynamic headroom necessary. I've never heard a domestic system configured in this way but have others and if so does the reproduced sound actually sound more like a symphony orchestra given that the listener is in a domestic space? I am sceptical but uninformed, can anyone help?

Dynamic range refers to the decibel range of whatever is being measured. For Human hearing the range is 0 to 120 dB from softest to loudest. In Audio it is common to confuse this with loudness, which is a different thing. Many recordings, particularly pop recordings, are mixed to sound loud, so that they grab listener attention, but actually have an extremely restricted dynamic range.
The dynamic range of reproduced sound is dependent upon : 1) The quality of the recording equipment (remastered recordings from the era of 78r.p.m will always suffer here), 2) The remixing engineer (as mentioned earlier) 3 the medium (although vinylistas hate to concede the point, digital offers about 20 more dB) 4) the amplifier-Speaker interaction.
IMO there is no reason that even a flea watt amplifier shouldn’t be able to reproduce full dynamic range if it is mated to speakers with a favorable impedance and sensitivity profile. Practically speaking most transistor amps have at least 60 watt ratings and should sound fine with all but the most demanding speakers with respect to dynamic range.

[Anastasius]

The definitive author on this, George Izzard O'Veering, produced an excellent paper published in Wireless World many years ago. It can be found here https://sound-au.com/dynamic-range.htm

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Many recordings, particularly pop recordings, are mixed to sound loud, so that they grab listener attention, but actually have an extremely restricted dynamic range.

Some classical recordings too. Many Decca Phase 4 were artificially restricted in dynamic range in order to sound impressive on budget equipment.

[gradus]

Dynamic range refers to the decibel range of whatever is being measured. For Human hearing the range is 0 to 120 dB from softest to loudest. In Audio it is common to confuse this with loudness, which is a different thing. Many recordings, particularly pop recordings, are mixed to sound loud, so that they grab listener attention, but actually have an extremely restricted dynamic range.
The dynamic range of reproduced sound is dependent upon : 1) The quality of the recording equipment (remastered recordings from the era of 78r.p.m will always suffer here), 2) The remixing engineer (as mentioned earlier) 3 the medium (although vinylistas hate to concede the point, digital offers about 20 more dB) 4) the amplifier-Speaker interaction.
IMO there is no reason that even a flea watt amplifier shouldn’t be able to reproduce full dynamic range if it is mated to speakers with a favorable impedance and sensitivity profile. Practically speaking most transistor amps have at least 60 watt ratings and should sound fine with all but the most demanding speakers with respect to dynamic range.

Thanks for commenting Richard. What prompted the posting was a US (PS) video in which colossal lousdspeakers (Infinity something or other) and immense amplification was employed to produce as close to real sound levels for a symphony orchestra as the state of the art permitted in a quasi-domestic setting. Having never heard such a system nor ever being likely to, I wondered whether an impartial ear ie neither salesman nor owner of said system could comment on the claims made. Needless to say the cost was eye-watering and it would probably be cheaper to hire an orchestra and hall.

[richardfinegold]

Thanks for commenting Richard. What prompted the posting was a US (PS) video in which colossal lousdspeakers (Infinity something or other) and immense amplification was employed to produce as close to real sound levels for a symphony orchestra as the state of the art permitted in a quasi-domestic setting. Having never heard such a system nor ever being likely to, I wondered whether an impartial ear ie neither salesman nor owner of said system could comment on the claims made. Needless to say the cost was eye-watering and it would probably be cheaper to hire an orchestra and hall.

The art of reproducing recorded sound is essentially an illusion. Most of us don’t have listening rooms that approximate a Concert Hall. And then even if we did, a recording of an Orchestra, as opposed to hearing the live Orchestra, would sound unnatural in that space even with the best of equipment, due to whatever choices the recording engineers have made.
So given that it is all an illusion, a conjurer’s trick, one has to decide how they prefer that illusion to be created. What types of equipment come closest to making us forget, at least temporarily, that it’s all a trick?
My preferences are: Stereo over mono, with occasional forays Into o Multichannel;digital over analog; speakers over headphones, preferably full range floorstanders, but if standmounts are to be employed then judiciously augmented by a subwoofer; transistors over valves, although I have lately been exploring the latter. And whatever works for me may not work for you. If the bizarre, and bizarrely priced, contraption that you reference works for that benighted one percenter, then I am happy for that person. Would I need his gear to achieve sonic nirvana? I’m suspecting that the answer would be no.

[Cockney Sparrow]

The art of reproducing recorded sound is essentially an illusion. Most of us don’t have listening rooms that approximate a Concert Hall..........If the bizarre, and bizarrely priced, contraption that you reference works for that benighted one percenter, then I am happy for that person. Would I need his gear to achieve sonic nirvana? I’m suspecting that the answer would be no.

Very much agree with your perspective there RFG. The variables (including self-delusion, expectation bias, hearing loss/variations in various ways with advancing age) are so many that it comes down to personal preference (and for some - belief systems**). Have to say, I'm certain my answer would be "no".
(**My belief system is using evidence from blind listening tests as a starting point, going for low distortion, not worrying about Jitter as I've never heard it, not reading Hi Fi magazines and enjoying the music given that I have a decent (and appropriate quality) replay system).

Here in the UK our living/listening rooms tend to be relatively small, and for the younger generation even smaller as for so many they struggle - financially, with our ridiculous property prices - to even buy any type of accommodation. Generally, only buying a house/apartment offers anything like security of tenure. The lucky few in detached houses (or, with a deaf neighbour like a friend of mine) will be able to play at concert hall volumes but for everybody else that itsn't possible given the poor requirements of our construction standards.

Its no surprise that bluetooth speakers and headphones sell but sales of "Hi Fi" as we know has been and is declining greatly. If I had to live in an apartment I would have to use quality headphones for serious listening at realistic sound levels.

[MrGongGong]

The art of reproducing recorded sound is essentially an illusion.

I think (as i've said before) there are other ways of thinking about it

[richardfinegold]

Very much agree with your perspective there RFG. The variables (including self-delusion, expectation bias, hearing loss/variations in various ways with advancing age) are so many that it comes down to personal preference (and for some - belief systems**). Have to say, I'm certain my answer would be "no".
(**My belief system is using evidence from blind listening tests as a starting point, going for low distortion, not worrying about Jitter as I've never heard it, not reading Hi Fi magazines and enjoying the music given that I have a decent (and appropriate quality) replay system).

Here in the UK our living/listening rooms tend to be relatively small, and for the younger generation even smaller as for so many they struggle - financially, with our ridiculous property prices - to even buy any type of accommodation. Generally, only buying a house/apartment offers anything like security of tenure. The lucky few in detached houses (or, with a deaf neighbour like a friend of mine) will be able to play at concert hall volumes but for everybody else that itsn't possible given the poor requirements of our construction standards.

Its no surprise that bluetooth speakers and headphones sell but sales of "Hi Fi" as we know has been and is declining greatly. If I had to live in an apartment I would have to use quality headphones for serious listening at realistic sound levels.

My own listening room is relatively small. My house is over 100 years old—that isn’t so common here—and my listening levels are tempered by my spouse, who tends to be reading nearby and is also convinced that loud listening damages hearing. I have 2 Multichannel systems in bigger spaces but they primarily are for video or when I get urge to listen in to a SACD in Multichannel. I use headphones primarily for travel or when I can’t sleep and want to listen without waking my wife. My objection to headphones is that after an hour I can no longer tolerate something on or in my ears. I also tire of the dual mono effect of getting music in each ear. Having said that, I do own a couple of different phones, although I could never see spending the kind of money uber priced cans now command.
So in gradus OP, perhaps the person has a cathedral style space. He then would require larger speakers and again the amount of amplification necessary to drive them, depending upon their sensitivity/impedence characteristics. I would think that once the minimum amount of amplification has been achieved, and that might be a large number of watts, that doubling or tripling that number isn’t really going to do anything except contribute to Global Warming

[MrGongGong]

and my listening levels are tempered by my spouse, who tends to be reading nearby and is also convinced that loud listening damages hearing.

And you aren't convinced ?

You seem to be convinced by global warming.

[jayne lee wilson]

Recorded music isn’t an illusion per se, surely?
The sounds are recorded on the tape or drive, and at our end the system reproduces them with more, or less, accuracy. Source/amps/speakers work together, well or badly, through a combination of maths and physics - (how we perceive the results comes after that - the subjective interaction, as it were..)

With amplifier power, leaving extremes aside, remember the importance of dynamic headroom: this is the ability of an amplifier to deliver a much greater power on brief musical peaks than the average power (60/100 watts per channel say) it is rated at continuously (the figure isn’t always accurately quoted - most amps are usually underrated on spec sheets nowadays, which wasn’t always the case!).

Dynamic ability, variously described as “peak current” “instantaneous peak current” etc., is vital, as the peak power levels required by many types of music, but especially classical orchestral/choral etc music, can be vastly higher than the average levels drawn upon.

HiFiNews studied this in a series some years ago. In one example, a Schumann Symphony, the 50 watt rating of the amp was easily adequate for most of the work, but in the finale the climaxes demanded over 200 watts to be cleanly reproduced. (Recall the intro to the finale of no.4, and the climactic coda….or the finale of Beethoven 9 after the earlier movements…). Distortion isn’t always overt; it may be perceived as harshness, aural discomfort, etc.

A quick guide to the power regulation of an amp which is usually stated is how it behaves into lower impedances (4/2/1 ohm etc). If it comes close to doubling into them (eg 100 watt into 8 ohm, 200 watt into 4 etc) that’s usually a good sign that the dynamic ability “power regulation" is pretty healthy. There are amps with modest average power/high current, but usually the best dynamic headroom is found on amps with fairly high average powers.
More powerful amps tend to sound better, simply because you never usually approach their power limit - they’re always cruising, whatever the power demands. And speakers (of whatever impedance/sensitivity) tend to behave better on the end of them, unsurprisingly.

Of course, high-sensitivity speakers (anything above 90db say, often found on the back of the cabinet) will go louder for a given volume (power) input. That is another amp/speaker variable to take account of. Beware low impedances in such speakers though - this could quickly drain an amp of its power reserves. (I did this inadvertently once, and blew up both amp & speaker….one reason I ended up with 200 watt amps with generous peak current).
At the other extreme, speakers over 95db may be hard to use, as the volume setting maybe already be too loud at 9 o’clock…..

As I said, maths and physics, and careful matching…..at the other domestic human end, room size/ears/taste, preference, experience…
How do you listen? Etc…

***
Realism?
For me it is more about “tangibility” than dynamic realism (important though that is); but that is also an aspect of better-designed systems - lack of distortion and colouration etc, that physical sense of 3D “reach out and touch” in the stereo image, either of individual instruments, or the solid body of the full orchestra, and the perception of the space around them.…

…and I had to find my way to studio monitoring systems to get it…
(BTW my room... roughly 6m x 3m...with tricky irregularities - bay window and inglenook fireplace...!)

[MrGongGong]

What ever happend to Mr "Natural Sound" ?

[gradus]

He's alive and well and living in Boulder with his Infinity Plus loudspeakers and 2kw+ power amps.

[Cockney Sparrow]

And you aren't convinced ?

You seem to be convinced by global warming.

Everything is relative. I have come to think Mrs CS is happier being aware that music is going on, but not loud enough to hear much of the detail, nor to rule out the ability to start conversations at will. Can anyone point me to designs for soundproofing a standalone garden structure for listening purposes? I'm not supposing RFG listens much at levels where it can cause damage..... I never have.
(I have never suffered as much as when I was taken (wasn't asked) to a Jools Holland concert where a fair part of the time it was a terrible, distorted wall of sound and the sound man was wearing in-ear protection. All around me seemed to be oblivious, but I suffered ringing in the ears for three days.)

I, too, tire of headphones, but if circumstances made it necessary, I would use them.

[Ein Heldenleben]

With dynamic range on a hi-fi it’s not so much how loud you can drive the sound because anything approaching the loudness of a symphony orchestra in a concert hall is likely to sound uncomfortable at home. The key thing is avoiding quiet sounds getting lost in the noise or hiss that any amplified system will produce - the so called signal to noise ratio . This noise is introduced at every stage of the recording process : in the microphone , in the mixing desk in the studio and more than anywhere in your home hi-fi. You can pay a fortune for tiny increments in the S/N ratio only to have your money undermined by a poor transfer or master recording .