Music On Blu-ray

[Sir Velo]

To clarify, my aim is to burn audio files to Blu-Ray, not to rip Blu-Ray discs. Noting from the discussion Dave linked to, that Roxio can burn audio DVDs, I wonder if its Windows equivalent, Nero Burning ROM, can do the same? I will delve further.

Right, I misunderstood! I convert everything into FLAC files these days so that I can listen in hi res on portable (ie "pocket friendly") devices so assumed that's what you meant.

[Bryn]

Right, I misunderstood! I convert everything into FLAC files these days so that I can listen in hi res on portable (ie "pocket friendly") devices so assumed that's what you meant.

I do that too but for low-cost long term storage, burning to DVD and/or Blu-ray beats hard disc or silicon storage hands down.

Decidedly O-T, a real bug-bear regarding data-compressed playback from silicon devices is the variability of CODEC compatibility between playback devices. All too few support FLAC, and those that support AAC tend to either want raw AAC or AAC wrapped as m4., Rarely can they handle either option. Fortunately, MP4Box is there to convert between the two, but that means double the storage space to have both versions available for different devices,

[richardfinegold]

I received the Colin Davis/LSO Nielsen Symphony cycle a few days ago. I’ve only listened to the first 3 Symphonies, but as with other LSO discs, it sounds cramped and airless, with the deficiencies of the recording venue tending to cancel out the benefits of the increased detail revealed. I felt much the same way about the JEG Mendelssohn set, but after a few playing of the latter the ear begins to adjust somewhat, so I am hoping that will hold true for this Davis set as well.

[Dave2002]

I do that too but for low-cost long term storage, burning to DVD and/or Blu-ray beats hard disc or silicon storage hands down.

Decidedly O-T, a real bug-bear regarding data-compressed playback from silicon devices is the variability of CODEC compatibility between playback devices. All too few support FLAC, and those that support AAC tend to either want raw AAC or AAC wrapped as m4., Rarely can they handle either option. Fortunately, MP4Box is there to convert between the two, but that means double the storage space to have both versions available for different devices,

Is it still the case that DVD and/or Blu-Ray beats hard disc for cost? I thought things had swung in favour of hard drives, with SSD coming along behind, though still rather more expensive.

I didn't know about MP4Box - I'll have to check that out - though if you end up doubling the space requirements that would rather seem to go against the whole cost basis. I used to use DVDs for storage, but seem to have rather given that up over the last few years. I occassionally burn CDs for use in the car, but otherwise I tend not to use optical media at all now.

Another factor is simply the time it takes to make an optical disc. Many people don't even have drives which will burn such discs now, and AFAIK Apple - which is now generally my preferred system - didn't believe in Blu-Ray drives, so to use one of those would require an external drive - more expense and faff.

[Dave2002]

I received the Colin Davis/LSO Nielsen Symphony cycle a few days ago. I’ve only listened to the first 3 Symphonies, but as with other LSO discs, it sounds cramped and airless, with the deficiencies of the recording venue tending to cancel out the benefits of the increased detail revealed. I felt much the same way about the JEG Mendelssohn set, but after a few playing of the latter the ear begins to adjust somewhat, so I am hoping that will hold true for this Davis set as well.

Have you ever been to the recording venue - which I assume was the Barbican hall? I haven't always liked that hall, though the Shostakovich 11 I heard there a few weeks ago sounded pretty good from my seat up in the circle. Maybe the problems depend on where recording engineers put the microphones - they probably don't put them out in the auditorium. I have been on the platform there a few times, but I couldn't say that I noticed the acoustics being particularly good or particularly bad up there. I know that in some halls there are complaints from musicians that they can't hear the rest of the orchestra - I don't know if the Barbican is one that they don't like much.

I have often felt the LSO live recordings were not great for sound quality, though others have said that some of them are OK and a reasonable representation of concerts they've been to. I'm just not sure that the problems are totally due to the hall. The recordings often seem to lack ambience and reverberation - with the exception of Gergiev's Mahler 8 which was done in St Pauls. In that case the CD has plenty of A&R - it's not by any means perfect, but is a lot better than it sounded live a million miles away at the other end of the cathedral. Perhaps the LSO Live recording engineers do everything with close mikes.

[richardfinegold]

[QUOTE=Dave2002;737402]Have you ever been to the recording venue - which I assume was the Barbican hall? I haven't always liked that hall, though the Shostakovich 11 I heard there a few weeks ago sounded pretty good from my seat up in the circle. Maybe the problems depend on where recording engineers put the microphones - they probably don't put them out in the auditorium. I have been on the platform there a few times, but I couldn't say that I noticed the acoustics being particularly good or particularly bad up there. I know that in some halls there are complaints from musicians that they can't hear the rest of the orchestra - I don't know if the Barbican is one that they don't like much.

I have often felt the LSO live recordings were not great for sound quality, though others have said that some of them are OK and a reasonable representation of concerts they've been to. I'm just not sure that the problems are totally due to the hall. The recordings often seem to lack ambience and reverberation - with the exception of Gergiev's Mahler 8 which was done in St Pauls. In that case the CD has plenty of A&R - it's not by any means perfect, but is a lot better than it sounded live a million miles away at the other end of the cathedral. Perhaps the LSO Live recording engineers do everything with close mikes.[/QUO

Never been there. Based on the recordings that I’ve heard from there, it isn’t very high on my list

[jayne lee wilson]

I received the Colin Davis/LSO Nielsen Symphony cycle a few days ago. I’ve only listened to the first 3 Symphonies, but as with other LSO discs, it sounds cramped and airless, with the deficiencies of the recording venue tending to cancel out the benefits of the increased detail revealed. I felt much the same way about the JEG Mendelssohn set, but after a few playing of the latter the ear begins to adjust somewhat, so I am hoping that will hold true for this Davis set as well.

I recall my sonic disappointment with the 24/96 of that Nielsen 2nd, but it is very much a musical disappointment too - it never takes off. Intending purchase as it appeared, I gave up on the cycle early on....but...

Much more recently (after the Gramophone Collection piece, DJF) I was thrilled - overwhelmed! - with the Davis 5th - but this was the CD layer of the SACD hybrid, so I'll be interested in your reactions there. The Barbican acoustical dullness is not completely overcome, but musically it's one of the best 5ths of all - and the 4th is almost as good.

The LSO/JEG Mendelssohn 1/4 was my Record of the Year back then, but this was the 24/192 download, replayed as WAVs....long disenchanted with the Barbican sound, I first heard this off Qobuz HiFi at 16/44.1 - which seemed promising, then bought the hi-res. Quite the revelation in that format at least...

Among the few LSO Lives I return to happily, the LSO/Gergiev Prokofiev Cycle is one of the better ones, musically and sonically (on CD again).

[Dave2002]

Re the Barbican

Never been there. Based on the recordings that I’ve heard from there, it isn’t very high on my list

It’s really not that bad, and there are some very good concerts. Well at least I can say I have enjoyed some concerts there immensely. I’d be interested to hear what others feel. I was actually surprised at the recent Shostakovich 11 concert just how good it sounded from the balcony - fairly close to the front. I did hear Colin Davis there a few times - I think doing Sibelius and perhaps also Nielsen, and another that I remember was Haitink and the VPO doing Shostakovich 10 - excellent.

I might still prefer the Festival Hall, but I wouldn’t avoid a potentially good programme at the Barbican. The RAH is in many ways dreadful, even though you often get to hear the pieces twice, but there are some spectacularly good concerts there.

I still have the feeling that the engineers who do the LSO live recordings don’t bring out anything like the best that hall can deliver. I don’t know what they are not doing right.

There are a few more halls in the UK which are good. The Philharmonic Hall in Liverpool can be amazingly good, while the newer Symphony Hall in Birmingham and the Bridgewater Hall in Manchester are also excellent. I’ve not been to the Sage near Newcastle, though seen it from the train, nor the hall in Cardiff, nor Basingstoke, nor the Lighthouse in Poole.

I’ve been to a few halls in other countries which have potential, but never heard a programme in some of the better sounding ones to really bring out the best. The concert hall in Leipzig is very good, and perhaps also the Casa da Musica in Porto - though I find the architecture there a bit unfriendly.

There are some halls in Sweden which are good, and for smaller groups the Church in the Rock in Helsinki is perhaps the best ever with amazing acoustics. I did enjoy the one concert I went to in Carnegie Hall, NYC - which ironically was played by a Russian Orchestra.

There are others halls I’d like to visit in other countries - such as the newer ones in Paris and Hamburg, and also the Berlin concert hall. Any other suggestions, please?

I would be interested to know if any others agree.

[richardfinegold]

I recall my sonic disappointment with the 24/96 of that Nielsen 2nd, but it is very much a musical disappointment too - it never takes off. Intending purchase as it appeared, I gave up on the cycle early on....but...

Much more recently (after the Gramophone Collection piece, DJF) I was thrilled - overwhelmed! - with the Davis 5th - but this was the CD layer of the SACD hybrid, so I'll be interested in your reactions there. The Barbican acoustical dullness is not completely overcome, but musically it's one of the best 5ths of all - and the 4th is almost as good.

The LSO/JEG Mendelssohn 1/4 was my Record of the Year back then, but this was the 24/192 download, replayed as WAVs....long disenchanted with the Barbican sound, I first heard this off Qobuz HiFi at 16/44.1 - which seemed promising, then bought the hi-res. Quite the revelation in that format at least...

Among the few LSO Lives I return to happily, the LSO/Gergiev Prokofiev Cycle is one of the better ones, musically and sonically (on CD again).

I haven’t made it to the Fifth yet. The Second and Third left me underwhelmed. Regarding Dave’s comment he seems to be in the minority about the sonic merits of the Barbican. Hopefully the new Hall will be a success in every way and be the showcase the LSO deserves. The worse Hall I’ve ever experienced is where the N.Y. Philharmonic plays.

[richardfinegold]

I recall my sonic disappointment with the 24/96 of that Nielsen 2nd, but it is very much a musical disappointment too - it never takes off. Intending purchase as it appeared, I gave up on the cycle early on....but...

Much more recently (after the Gramophone Collection piece, DJF) I was thrilled - overwhelmed! - with the Davis 5th - but this was the CD layer of the SACD hybrid, so I'll be interested in your reactions there. The Barbican acoustical dullness is not completely overcome, but musically it's one of the best 5ths of all - and the 4th is almost as good.

The LSO/JEG Mendelssohn 1/4 was my Record of the Year back then, but this was the 24/192 download, replayed as WAVs....long disenchanted with the Barbican sound, I first heard this off Qobuz HiFi at 16/44.1 - which seemed promising, then bought the hi-res. Quite the revelation in that format at least...

Among the few LSO Lives I return to happily, the LSO/Gergiev Prokofiev Cycle is one of the better ones, musically and sonically (on CD again).

I’ve listened to whole Blu Ray disc now a few times, in two channel and Multichannel. Sonically, I am not sure that the recording of the Fifth improves much on the others in the set. It’s still pretty dry and particularly in two channel the sound stage is cramped. The snare drum sounds as if he is sitting with the first violins. (Given the importance of the snare drum work, perhaps Sir Colin placed it there?). The entire set is much more listenable in Multichannel, which introduces air and a sense of a real space, even if the musicians still sound like they are lined up like ducks across the stage.
Musically, this is a very satisfying 5th, although the energy seems to flag a bit towards the end. For the first time in this set, the musicians seem to be on the same page, no more ragged entries and chords that stutter to a close due to imprecision, problems that are particularly noticeable in the first two Symphonies. The grim march like episode that dominates I is well done, with real menace from the double basses and the trombones. The climax of that movement isn’t as cathartic as some other recordings, and there is a bit of a stumble at the end of II as noted, but still very satisfying musically.
For me the highlight of the set is the Sixth. I really enjoyed the Allegretto II, where Nielsen seems to be blowing musical raspberries at some of his contemporaries, and at least in Multichannel the details of the playing were more clearly delineated than I am used to. I laughed out loud a few times as the satire scored repeatedly. Many of the phrase endings here in the winds are clearly audible—score one for Blu Ray—which gives more meaning as one can hear more detail

[Dave2002]

I haven’t made it to the Fifth yet. The Second and Third left me underwhelmed. Regarding Dave’s comment he seems to be in the minority about the sonic merits of the Barbican. Hopefully the new Hall will be a success in every way and be the showcase the LSO deserves. The worse Hall I’ve ever experienced is where the N.Y. Philharmonic plays.

I'm not sure about being in a minority. Many people do go to the Barbican, and seem to enjoy it. I've not been to the hall where the NY Philharmonic plays. I just don't like many of the LSO Live recordings - but I can't say that's only down to the hall.

When I first heard the LSO live in the RFH it just blew me away. That was before the "improvements". I don't know if the modifications really have made it better than before - it's still OK. I know the Philharmonic Hall in Liverpool pretty well - and always thought it had a good sound, and way better than Manchester's Free Trade Hall, where I heard Barbirolli once. Sadly I missed one concert, perhaps the only one in the last 50 years or so, when the LSO visited Liverpool. Apparently that was absolutely stunning, with the orchestra bringing out the best of the hall, and vice versa.

What "new hall"? I suppose you mean the proposed vanity project for Simon Rattle, the LSO and London. Given the general support for music in the UK's capital, plus the current state of the economy and political nonsense, I just don't see how it can be justified. I may like, nay love, much classical music, but yet another project centred on London which may favour the haves (including me) more over the have-nots - should be way down the list of the country's potential developments. To use a currently popular phrase, this is one can that I'd quite happily see kicked further down the road for a long time.

The Blu-Rays you mention do sound interesting though - and I'm now also tempted by Bohm's Mozart symphony set - even though I'm not sure I'll enjoy all of the performances.

[richardfinegold]

I'm not sure about being in a minority. Many people do go to the Barbican, and seem to enjoy it. I've not been to the hall where the NY Philharmonic plays. I just don't like many of the LSO Live recordings - but I can't say that's only down to the hall.

When I first heard the LSO live in the RFH it just blew me away. That was before the "improvements". I don't know if the modifications really have made it better than before - it's still OK. I know the Philharmonic Hall in Liverpool pretty well - and always thought it had a good sound, and way better than Manchester's Free Trade Hall, where I heard Barbirolli once. Sadly I missed one concert, perhaps the only one in the last 50 years or so, when the LSO visited Liverpool. Apparently that was absolutely stunning, with the orchestra bringing out the best of the hall, and vice versa.

What "new hall"? I suppose you mean the proposed vanity project for Simon Rattle, the LSO and London. Given the general support for music in the UK's capital, plus the current state of the economy and political nonsense, I just don't see how it can be justified. I may like, nay love, much classical music, but yet another project centred on London which may favour the haves (including me) more over the have-nots - should be way down the list of the country's potential developments. To use a currently popular phrase, this is one can that I'd quite happily see kicked further down the road for a long time.

The Blu-Rays you mention do sound interesting though - and I'm now also tempted by Bohm's Mozart symphony set - even though I'm not sure I'll enjoy all of the performances.

Well, all I can say Dave is that most critics reviewing LSO Live performances (andI read Gramophone, Fanfare, and used to read IRR before it's demise) don't have nice things to say about the Barbican. The recordings that I've heard seem to confirm that consensus. If true, a real shame because the LSO certainly deserves a first rate showcase I will defer to you because you actually do attend concerts there, and I would be interested in your impressions of some the recordings discussed

[Dave2002]

Hi Richard

I'll have to look at my collection - I have quite a number of LSO Live recordings. If you want me to consider Blu-Rays as well, please let me know - including suggestions, and I'll decide which ones to buy. I'm fairly sure I have some of the ones you mentioned, but not any Blu Rays to date.

I can understand some of the ambivalence (antagonism?) towards the Barbican, but I have heard some pretty decent concerts there.
Something seems to go wrong when the recordings are made. In the past the LSO recorded for major labels - mostly Decca, and I think they used some venues specifically for recording - not necessarily concert halls - not even the RFH, though there might be a few from the RAH. Then they decided to do their own thing, and produce their own recordings, which may have helped to boost their revenue, and enhance their branding/image. Initially those recordings were quite cheap compared with the regular companies, though the prices have gone up a bit relatively now. LSO Live was one of the first to do SACD and surround sound, and now they're doing Blu Ray. It was also one of the first to do genuinely live recordings, based on two or three similar concerts I believe, with the best "takes" from each of the concerts given over a short period of time. That would have reduced production costs when that method was first adopted, and does perhaps capture some of the excitement of some of the live performances.

One issue the hall has is that it's quite a long way off regular routes, though obviously getting there depends where one comes from.
Getting to Barbican tube from the south may require a few changes, and sometimes buses are more convenient. The RFH on the other hand is part of the South Bank complex, and quite easy to get to from Waterloo station.

[richardfinegold]

I applaud the LSO Live Series for releasing recordings on SACD and Blu Ray. I do think that they sound best in Multichannel.
I probably should give some of the Nielsen SACDs a spin that came with the Blu Ray, but when I did some comparisons with the JEG Mendelsohn set, there wasn't much difference...