Music On Blu-ray

[richardfinegold]

I thought that it might be useful to have a companion folder to the purely tech side to see what discs people might recommend.
Blu Ray was developed primarily with video in mind (thus some of the connectivity issues ,as manufacturers assume that most people will be using HDMI), but offersthe potential for increased dynamic range and greatly increased storage capacity relative to CD or DVD—and a sharper picture than the latter.
As an inherently video based medium, it’s a natural for Opera and Ballet, as well as live concerts.
In the music only capacity, it’s storage capacity is amazing. Reference has already been made to the Solti Ring being comfortably managed on one disc. One of my frequently played discs is the first Karajan/BPO Beethoven cycle. IMO the sound has so much greater impact than the lps, and the ease of finding tracks is such a bonus, that I frequently play it through from start to finish. I recently added the Solti/Ashkenazy Beethoven PCs and the JEG Mendelssohn Orchestral music on one disc. One can debate the merits of these performances but surely the advantage of having them all on one disc in the best possible sound must be self evident.
Unfortunately most Blu Ray releases do not intend to benefit from this increased storage, but merely try to get people to repurchase their favorites—the Kleiber/VPO Beethoven 5/7 being a case in point.
Then there are the advantages of Multichannel, probably not a priority for most Forumites and the Public in general, but there are a few labels that specialize in catering to we aficionados. My favorite is the German Tacet Label, which unabashedly tries to place the listener in the middle of the ensemble. It is an unrealistic perspective, but can be thrilling. Recently I was amazed at their record of Mozart Gran Partita, with so much low level detail and natural tone. And all coming from a cheap Sony Blu Ray into a Pioneer receiver of 12 year vintage. Blu Ray and Multichannel (or SACD) can really level the playing field in that modest equipment can produce staggering sonic results. Many of the current offerings, such as the Karajan and the Ashkenazy/Solti Beethoven, are only offered in 2 channels, as manufacturers realize that most people have rejected Multichannel
My most frequently played Blu Rays have been the Abbado/Lucerne Mahler cycle, frequently discussed elsewhere on the Forum. Any other recommendations?

[Stanfordian]

I thought that it might be useful to have a companion folder to the purely tech side to see what discs people might recommend.
Blu Ray was developed primarily with video in mind (thus some of the connectivity issues ,as manufacturers assume that most people will be using HDMI), but offersthe potential for increased dynamic range and greatly increased storage capacity relative to CD or DVD—and a sharper picture than the latter.
As an inherently video based medium, it’s a natural for Opera and Ballet, as well as live concerts.
In the music only capacity, it’s storage capacity is amazing. Reference has already been made to the Solti Ring being comfortably managed on one disc. One of my frequently played discs is the first Karajan/BPO Beethoven cycle. IMO the sound has so much greater impact than the lps, and the ease of finding tracks is such a bonus, that I frequently play it through from start to finish. I recently added the Solti/Ashkenazy Beethoven PCs and the JEG Mendelssohn Orchestral music on one disc. One can debate the merits of these performances but surely the advantage of having them all on one disc in the best possible sound must be self evident.
Unfortunately most Blu Ray releases do not intend to benefit from this increased storage, but merely try to get people to repurchase their favorites—the Kleiber/VPO Beethoven 5/7 being a case in point.
Then there are the advantages of Multichannel, probably not a priority for most Forumites and the Public in general, but there are a few labels that specialize in catering to we aficionados. My favorite is the German Tacet Label, which unabashedly tries to place the listener in the middle of the ensemble. It is an unrealistic perspective, but can be thrilling. Recently I was amazed at their record of Mozart Gran Partita, with so much low level detail and natural tone. And all coming from a cheap Sony Blu Ray into a Pioneer receiver of 12 year vintage. Blu Ray and Multichannel (or SACD) can really level the playing field in that modest equipment can produce staggering sonic results. Many of the current offerings, such as the Karajan and the Ashkenazy/Solti Beethoven, are only offered in 2 channels, as manufacturers realize that most people have rejected Multichannel
My most frequently played Blu Rays have been the Abbado/Lucerne Mahler cycle, frequently discussed elsewhere on the Forum. Any other recommendations?

If the music from a Blu-ray disc could be easily played on standard CD player it would have taken off much more that it has. I find this a major disadvantage.

[Bryn]

Yes, and flat 78 rpm Shellacs might have taken off more quickly if their players could also have played cylinders. A Blu-ray disc can hold between 35 and 70 times the data that a standard CD can. It is read by laser light from the other end of the optical spectrum to that used for CDs. Fortunately, Blu-ray players are backward compatible in that they can play CDs and DVDs. Some, like those which were made by Oppo, plus some Cambridge Audio machines, also read the high resolution layers of SACDs and DVD-As.

[Stanfordian]

Yes, and flat 78 rpm Shellacs might have taken off more quickly if their players could also have played cylinders. A Blu-ray disc can hold between 35 and 70 times the data that a standard CD can. It is read by laser light from the other end of the optical spectrum to that used for CDs. Fortunately, Blu-ray players are backward compatible in that they can play CDs and DVDs. Some, like those which were made by Oppo, plus some Cambridge Audio machines, also read the high resolution layers of SACDs and DVD-As.

That sarcastic tone is as cutting as ever. Of course you are right, as you always are. I apologise great master for not being as knowledgeable on the subject as you clearly are.

[Bryn]

Always that sarcasm for those most not as enlightened as you.

Sorry, but it requires very little effort indeed to discover relevant information regarding the major differences in technology between CDs, DVDs and Blu-ray. My analogy might have been more usefully drawn between CD and Blu-ray, on the one hand, and 12" Shellac and 12" vinyl LP on the other. Both formats could be handled, to some extent, by a turntable with variable speed and a sapphire stylus (diamond would do too much damage to the Shellac's grooves) but trying to play a 12" vinyl disc on a turntable using a thorn or mild steel 'needle' would have been disastrous. Hybrid SACDs, by the way, can only be played on a standard CD player because there are multiple data layers, one of which a CD player's red laser beam can read.

[Stanfordian]

Sorry, but it requires very little effort indeed to discover relevant information regarding the major differences in technology between CDs, DVDs and Blu-ray. My analogy might have been more usefully drawn between CD and Blu-ray, on the one hand, and 12" Shellac and 12" vinyl LP on the other. Both formats could be handled, to some extent, by a turntable with variable speed and a sapphire stylus (diamond would do too much damage to the Shellac's grooves) but trying to play a 12" vinyl disc on a turntable using a thorn or mild steel 'needle' would have been disastrous. Hybrid SACDs, by the way, can only be played on a standard CD player because there are multiple data layers, one of which a CD player's red laser beam can read.

Thank you.

That's very helpful and interesting information.

[Dave2002]

If the music from a Blu-ray disc could be easily played on standard CD player it would have taken off much more that it has. I find this a major disadvantage.

Ignoring some of the sour notes on this thread, I should point out that many "CD" players now actually use DVD drives, and I see no reason why they couldn't (if they don't already) use Blu Ray drives. It is true that DVD and Blu Ray drives are different from basic CD drives, but many of the difficulties have been largely solved, so some manufacturers can use parts from mass market products in slightly different products which can reduced their overall costs for each unit. I don't think many manufacturers are particularly bothered about the CD market now anyway, and music distributors are moving that way too.

Presumably the reaon why there are no (AFAIK) audio players for CDs which will also do SACDS, DVD-A and Blu Ray audio has more to do with commerce and the "need" for companies to profit from selling their kit. There are other considerations, but companies do try to manipulate the markets, not always to satisfy the best wishes of all their customers.

[richardfinegold]

Ignoring some of the sour notes on this thread, I should point out that many "CD" players now actually use DVD drives, and I see no reason why they couldn't (if they don't already) use Blu Ray drives. It is true that DVD and Blu Ray drives are different from basic CD drives, but many of the difficulties have been largely solved, so some manufacturers can use parts from mass market products in slightly different products which can reduced their overall costs for each unit. I don't think many manufacturers are particularly bothered about the CD market now anyway, and music distributors are moving that way too.

Presumably the reaon why there are no (AFAIK) audio players for CDs which will also do SACDS, DVD-A and Blu Ray audio has more to do with commerce and the "need" for companies to profit from selling their kit. There are other considerations, but companies do try to manipulate the markets, not always to satisfy the best wishes of all their customers.

I had hoped that this thread would have been complementary to the other Blu Ray thread and been more focused on music instead of technology,but of course each thread takes on a life of its own, and perhaps it isn’t possible to separate the two issuesso perhaps the mods should merge the two Blu Ray threads.
Stan, you will be pleased to know that many Blu Ray music releases now come with CDs as well. Two of the offerings cited in my first post, the Ashkenazy/Solti Beethoven PCs, come with CDs and the JEG Mendelssohn comes with SACDs that can be played on a conventional CD player.
Dave I didn’t understand your last paragraph. Sony, Pioneer and Marantz all make Universal Players that will play everything. Oppo had dominated that segment of the market until their demise.

[Dave2002]

Dave I didn’t understand your last paragraph. Sony, Pioneer and Marantz all make Universal Players that will play everything. Oppo had dominated that segment of the market until their demise.

I'm almost following in the steps of one of your former presidents - sometimes I don't even understand myself!

I didn't think there were any serious attempts to make "CD" players which could also play everything - including Blu-Ray, though obviously there are video players that can do many formats. It's OK to use video players, but for music only often a pain as they might have to be hooked up to a TV simply to work out what's on the discs. That's what I found with my old Oppo DVD/SACD/DVD-A player.

Sorry I've not really been able to comment on Blu-Ray music, as I've not been too inclined to buy expensive sets, some of which duplicate complete sets of CDs I have, yet with one or two presumably very good quality Blu-Ray discs thrown in. I'm as as sure as I can be from reading reviews that some are very good, but there are a few factors - cost, complexity and domestic harmony which work against such new developments. Trying to explain why I might "need" yet another box with yet more cabling to more DACs etc. is not something I look forward to doing - so to date I've avoided that - along with pressure to offload some of the other kit I've accumulated over the years, which mostly I've resisted.

[richardfinegold]

I'm almost following in the steps of one of your former presidents - sometimes I don't even understand myself!

I didn't think there were any serious attempts to make "CD" players which could also play everything - including Blu-Ray, though obviously there are video players that can do many formats. It's OK to use video players, but for music only often a pain as they might have to be hooked up to a TV simply to work out what's on the discs. That's what I found with my old Oppo DVD/SACD/DVD-A player.

Sorry I've not really been able to comment on Blu-Ray music, as I've not been too inclined to buy expensive sets, some of which duplicate complete sets of CDs I have, yet with one or two presumably very good quality Blu-Ray discs thrown in. I'm as as sure as I can be from reading reviews that some are very good, but there are a few factors - cost, complexity and domestic harmony which work against such new developments. Trying to explain why I might "need" yet another box with yet more cabling to more DACs etc. is not something I look forward to doing - so to date I've avoided that - along with pressure to offload some of the other kit I've accumulated over the years, which mostly I've resisted.

I suppose if someone made a music only Universal Player, then it would be criticized for not offering video. It is possible to operate the latter Oppo models without a monitor, but it is certainly easier with a monitor. The solution of course would be to have a decent sized touchscreen on the player itself—many streamers such as Aurender do this—and offer an app for a mobile device

[Bryn]

On a slightly different tack, listening to the Kubelik Mahler Blu-ray, I wondered whether DG missed a trick or whether the Blu-ray control system simply just does not allow for the possibility of built-in stops at the end of specified tracks, e.g. at the end of each symphony. It can be rather off-putting to have, say, the 'Resurrection' following hard on the heels of the final chord of the 1st Symphony. The menu system for that Mahler/Kubelik disc is not that clever, either. There is just a block of four columns of track numbers. You do get a fuller description when you highlight one, but it's a bit hit and miss, finding the right track. Minor quibbles, to be sure, but still quibbles.

Re. the issue of using Blu-rays without a monitor, recent Blu-ray audio releases tend to come with instructions on how to achieve this.

[richardfinegold]

On a slightly different tack, listening to the Kubelik Mahler Blu-ray, I wondered whether DG missed a trick or whether the Blu-ray control system simply just does not allow for the possibility of built-in stops at the end of specified tracks, e.g. at the end of each symphony. It can be rather off-putting to have, say, the 'Resurrection' following hard on the heels of the final chord of the 1st Symphony. The menu system for that Mahler/Kubelik disc is not that clever, either. There is just a block of four columns of track numbers. You do get a fuller description when you highlight one, but it's a bit hit and miss, finding the right track. Minor quibbles, to be sure, but still quibbles.

Re. the issue of using Blu-rays without a monitor, recent Blu-ray audio releases tend to come with instructions on how to achieve this.

I wasn’t aware that the Kubelik was on Blu Ray, so I will have to investigate. The track system that you describe is the same for Beethoven set. It works well there, if I want to play the Eroica, for example, just start on track 9, and just remember that that the Pastorale has 5 movements. As far one work starting on the heels of another, that’s annoying, but hardly unique to Blu Ray. I remember a double lp of Walter/NYP of Mahler 1/2 where the opening of the Resurrection started while the echo of the finale of the First was still audible (the Funeral Marche of the Hero of M1 starting while he was still alive, as it were). And in the spirit of your excellent #3 in this thread, we could probably find a Wax cylinder that crams pieces into a small space

[Keraulophone]

Being in the grip of Ring fever (having experienced my first complete Ring cycle at Covent Garden last year, I'm off to New York to see the Met's revival in two weeks), I can recommend the blu-ray Ring on Naxos, with Jaap van Zweden and the Hong Kong Philharmonic Chorus and Orchestra, and a pretty impressive cast including Matthias Goerner as Wotan, Gun-Brit Backmin singing her first Brünnhilde in Götterdämmerung, Stuart Skelton as Siegmund, Michelle DeYoung as Fricke, and Simon O’Neill as Siegfried. Immediately striking is the realism of the blu-ray audio recording allowing the excellent playing of the HK Phil to come over effortlessly into one's listening room.

It is important to have a decent hi-fi setup to enjoy the potential benefits. There are two main options as I see it: either a blu-ray or universal player through a 5.1 channel AVR to a multi-speaker system, or the same player feeding a (likely to be superior) stereo amplifier either via an analogue or digital link, and a (larger and higher quality) pair of loudspeakers. I tend to do the former with blu-ray discs and the latter with SACDs.


The Naxos blu-ray audio catalogue is at:

https://www.naxos.com/blu-ray_audio.asp

.

[Sir Velo]

It is important to have a decent hi-fi setup to enjoy the potential benefits. There are two main options as I see it: either a blu-ray or universal player through a 5.1 channel AVR to a multi-speaker system, or the same player feeding a (likely to be superior) stereo amplifier either via an analogue or digital link, and a (larger and higher quality) pair of loudspeakers. I tend to do the former with blu-ray discs and the latter with SACDs.

The Naxos blu-ray audio catalogue is at:
https://www.naxos.com/blu-ray_audio.asp

That's useful information. I did obtain a Sony BDP-s7200 a couple of years ago with the dual intention of obtaining better quality video/audio for films and also for the consumption of certain audio (eg the Beghin Virtual Hadyn). This latter development does not appear to have materialised into anything like a substantial catalogue of recordings so the player has tended to languish virtually unused. Moreover, with the increase in high quality streaming (both video and audio) - eg Qobuz's hi res offering- I can see my player becoming virtually redundant. In fact, I tend to use it more now as a glorified streaming device with its inbuilt YouTube and Netflix apps.

For me, the ease of access to a virtually complete musical library, most of which are either in 24 bit recordings or in the latest remasterings of vintage performances for a relatively modest monthly outlay, means that Qobuz as the default musical source is now a no brainer as far as I'm concerned.

Interested, as ever, to hear alternative views!

[Dave2002]

It is important to have a decent hi-fi setup to enjoy the potential benefits. There are two main options as I see it: either a blu-ray or universal player through a 5.1 channel AVR to a multi-speaker system, or the same player feeding a (likely to be superior) stereo amplifier either via an analogue or digital link, and a (larger and higher quality) pair of loudspeakers. I tend to do the former with blu-ray discs and the latter with SACDs.


The Naxos blu-ray audio catalogue is at:

https://www.naxos.com/blu-ray_audio.asp

.

Thanks for the link to the Naxos catlogue.

Another way to find Blu-Rays or appropriate collections is via searches on Amazon in the relevant sections - probably CDs and vinyl. To my surprise search for "Blu-Ray" gets some, as does also "Pure Audio". I was indeed surprised to find that some of the LSO Live recordings which were perhaps previously on SACD now come with a Blu Ray Audio *** disc as well.

Some of the discs found by this method are probably worth having, and affordable - something else which I hadn't expected.

For anyone who hasn't already got the Kubelik Mahler set, that would be a good one - it has been mentioned already.
See https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Sy...y&sr=8-1-fkmr2 - but it looks as though it's "only" 2 channel - note the words LPCM 2.0 on the back cover.

There's also a Debussy Pelleas et Melisande - Simon Rattle et. al. - https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Debussy-P...s=music&sr=1-1 In the case of this recording, is the Blu-Ray also in surround sound? It's not quite clear from the label, though the SACDs in the box do have both stereo and 5.1 multi-channel versions. One of the Amazon reviewers mentions that the Blu-Ray does have both stereo and surround sound formats. ****

I'm not sure if these will work with every Blu-Ray player - maybe they will. We have a Sony Blu-Ray player - part of a cheapish surround sound system bought years ago. It has HDMI and optical outputs. Not sure whether the HDMI is the latest (or near latest) standard, but in any case it would need to be fed into an AV amplifier or pre-amp in order to get the benefit (I don't have one of those). Re the optical output, that should work for 2 channel recordings, though I'm assuming the benefit for some issues would be greater with surround sound. In the case of those companies which are offering SACD/CD Hybrids, plus a Blu-Ray audio disc, I could get the benefit of surround sound via an older Oppo SACD player from the SACD discs.

It would be good to have a few (or more) recommendations for good recordings/performances - in both 2 channel and multi-channel versions. The Kubelik mentioned above would be good if only because of the performances, but some others may be recordings which are perhaps not quite at the very top of the pile in terms of performance, but may come up really well in terms of sound quality. I have had some CDs in the past which have swayed me in their favour because of their high quality recording.

Also thanks to Richard for starting this thread - it's made me more aware of what's out there.

*** Not I assume DVD-A, which some Naxos discs had a while back. I made a mistake with this earlier.

**** One reviewer here points out a possible snag with Blu-Ray, due to additional material sometimes put on the discs for use with a computer - https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Debussy-P...y&sr=8-1-fkmr2