Music On Blu-ray

[Dave2002]

The problem with making assertions about CDs vs Blu Rays vs using DACs etc. etc. is that there are too many variables and no objective ways which are accepted to make sensible comparisons. Individual subjective assessment is the order of the day. The number of people who have “compared various Teac, Philips, Sony CD sources, ...” is relatively small, and whether those people can attest that what they say is “true” and for the rest of us to believe them is very much open to doubt.

[jayne lee wilson]

The problem with making assertions about CDs vs Blu Rays vs using DACs etc. etc. is that there are too many variables and no objective ways which are accepted to make sensible comparisons. Individual subjective assessment is the order of the day. The number of people who have “compared various Teac, Philips, Sony CD sources, ...” is relatively small, and whether those people can attest that what they say is “true” and for the rest of us to believe them is very much open to doubt.

....which brings us back to my initial point - that comparing a blu-ray to a CD of the same recording, from the same set, on one particular Universal/Blu-ray Player isn't necessarily any guide to how that CD may sound at its best - not to mention other issues of the recording on CD as a separate issue...apart from where remastering has been done (well, hopefully...), I've frequently found reissues of an earlier CD to be inferior to the original disc....

You run into similar (though not identical) problems trying to compare SACD to CD on a hybrid disc......

[richardfinegold]

[QUOTE=Dave2002;735521]The problem with making assertions about CDs vs Blu Rays vs using DACs etc. etc. is that there are too many variables and no objective ways which are accepted to make sensible comparisons. Individual subjective assessment is the order of the day. The number of people who have “compared various Teac, Philips, Sony CD sources, ...” is relatively small, and whether those people can attest that what they say is “true” and for the rest of us to believe them is very much open to doubt.[/QUOTE
To paraphrase Bryn upthread, since all comparisons are inherently subjective, why don’t we just go back to wax cylinders and call it a day?

[Dave2002]

....which brings us back to my initial point - that comparing a blu-ray to a CD of the same recording, from the same set, on one particular Universal/Blu-ray Player isn't necessarily any guide to how that CD may sound at its best - not to mention other issues of the recording on CD as a separate issue...apart from where remastering has been done (well, hopefully...), I've frequently found reissues of an earlier CD to be inferior to the original disc....

You run into similar (though not identical) problems trying to compare SACD to CD on a hybrid disc......

There is a web page somewhere - not sure I can find it right now - which has a large list of different versions of "identical" recordings - many of them more of "popular" music, and someone, has or some group of people have rated many of them. I think one "objective" measurement reported in that list is the dynamic range, though that's not the only important thing one needs to know when trying to buy or listen to a CD or other music source. I'll try to find that page again and link to it.

My view is still that going to live concerts does generally give much better sound quality - though isn't always as convenient.

In Sweden they have a word "lagom" - which means pretty much "good enough". For recorded music surely most of us don't want to spend the rest of our lives chasing expensive kit and recordings and sampling hundreds of performances. We would like to have equipment and recordings which are good enough, so that we can then get on and simply listen to the music. I'm not suggesting we all accept poor quality sound, but for many people there will be a point when they either just want to listen to music, or alternatively go and do other things which interest them.

I think one of the things about this thread is the suggestion that adopting Blu Ray - probably with an external DAC and maybe with a surround sound configuration and some of the discs which are now being released may give acceptably very good results for those who can afford it - and the discs aren't always prohibitively expensive, nor are the Blu Ray players.

The record companies may love this, though, as it gives them yet another chance to sell performances, some of which many of us may already have in several different forms. Environmentalists may be concerned at the distribution of even more discs for each bundle - a few hybrid SACDs plus a Blu Ray.

[richardfinegold]

It’s all being replaced by streaming anyway. That is the ideal for the record company—no physical product to inventory, etc.
Convenience trumps quality. Really the best use of Blu Ray is the use that Petrushka noted in his thread—the ability to store something like the Ring on one disc. The fact that the quality is improved is a secondary consideration for the marketeers. And it doesn’t look like there is a tremendous rush to do this

[Dave2002]

Maybe in the US streaming is always very good. Also, maybe music is different. One of my friends, who has really good kit, both for video and for audio, has several Blu Ray players I believe - one "cheap and chearful" one - which I think is actually already an up market model, and another one which is apparently even better. His comments now are that 1. one can now get a pretty decent Blu Ray player for around £300 (that's a factor or two smaller than he paid for his others), and 2. that streaming just does not work for him - the data rates achieveable in his location are such that the audio and definitely video quality are severely compromised. However, he has balked at buying one of these - http://www.projectorjunkies.com/jvc-dla-nx9-review-2/ JVC Projector 8k DLA-NX9 - which apparently is superb, and clearly feels that would be a waste of money for streaming quality video.

http://www.us.jvc.com/projectors/procision/dla_nx9/ Price - around $17k in the US, and maybe there's a UK version for around £13k.

[Dave2002]

I should have struck while the iron was hot. The Kubelik Mahler box has now reverted to a higher price on am.uk.

I noticed this though on am.de - https://www.amazon.de/Sibelius-Sinfo...ateway&sr=8-14

Comparing with the UK amazon, I note that the German store is offering this collection with the Blu-Ray, but the UK store marks it as temporarily unavailable, and there's no sign of a Blu Ray. Perhaps LSO Live is gradually going through their issues and rebundling with Blu Rays.

There's also this with music from Iceland on the am.de site - https://www.amazon.de/Recurrence-Pur...r=8-1-fkmrnull

[jayne lee wilson]

There is a web page somewhere - not sure I can find it right now - which has a large list of different versions of "identical" recordings - many of them more of "popular" music, and someone, has or some group of people have rated many of them. I think one "objective" measurement reported in that list is the dynamic range, though that's not the only important thing one needs to know when trying to buy or listen to a CD or other music source. I'll try to find that page again and link to it.

My view is still that going to live concerts does generally give much better sound quality - though isn't always as convenient.

In Sweden they have a word "lagom" - which means pretty much "good enough". For recorded music surely most of us don't want to spend the rest of our lives chasing expensive kit and recordings and sampling hundreds of performances. We would like to have equipment and recordings which are good enough, so that we can then get on and simply listen to the music. I'm not suggesting we all accept poor quality sound, but for many people there will be a point when they either just want to listen to music, or alternatively go and do other things which interest them.

I think one of the things about this thread is the suggestion that adopting Blu Ray - probably with an external DAC and maybe with a surround sound configuration and some of the discs which are now being released may give acceptably very good results for those who can afford it - and the discs aren't always prohibitively expensive, nor are the Blu Ray players.

The record companies may love this, though, as it gives them yet another chance to sell performances, some of which many of us may already have in several different forms. Environmentalists may be concerned at the distribution of even more discs for each bundle - a few hybrid SACDs plus a Blu Ray.

Well much of this is what I was trying to put across earlier (#34 #40 et seq)... when I said that somewhere along the hifi way you take a personal route to "find your level..."...
Lagom indeed....
The "Audiophile Project" is often born of a love of music, can be pursued in many ways, and happy are those who find some plateau of contentment within it, so much harder to achieve in The Real Life...

[jayne lee wilson]

[QUOTE=richardfinegold;735527]

The problem with making assertions about CDs vs Blu Rays vs using DACs etc. etc. is that there are too many variables and no objective ways which are accepted to make sensible comparisons. Individual subjective assessment is the order of the day. The number of people who have “compared various Teac, Philips, Sony CD sources, ...” is relatively small, and whether those people can attest that what they say is “true” and for the rest of us to believe them is very much open to doubt.[/QUOTE
To paraphrase Bryn upthread, since all comparisons are inherently subjective, why don’t we just go back to wax cylinders and call it a day?

I was merely making a few technical points - I thought fairly obvious ones - about the pitfalls of media comparisons within a given system or on a specific component... that is distinct from subjective preference.

As for comparing the experience or SQ of live concerts to hifi or home listening... a can of worms we probably don't want to open up again...!

[Dave2002]

The problem with making assertions about CDs vs Blu Rays vs using DACs etc. etc. is that there are too many variables and no objective ways which are accepted to make sensible comparisons. Individual subjective assessment is the order of the day. The number of people who have “compared various Teac, Philips, Sony CD sources, ...” is relatively small, and whether those people can attest that what they say is “true” and for the rest of us to believe them is very much open to doubt.

To paraphrase Bryn upthread, since all comparisons are inherently subjective, why don’t we just go back to wax cylinders and call it a day?

I wonder if you've misundersood me, or the context of the original post. Of course I accept that Blu Ray is almost certainly much better than wax cylinders, 78s or even LPs. What I was trying to put across is the idea that I (or we) are not on the whole able to amass lots of experience of possiby esoteric and expensive kit, and make valid comparisons. I have no idea whether the "best" streaming services with the "best" streamer beats the "best" CD player, the "best" SACD player, or the "best" Blu Ray player, whether or not coupled with the "best" DAC. Some people have obviously tried a few and may have preferences, and I'm not decrying their wish or right to tell others about those. Most of us just have to make what we deem to be sensible judgements, and then live with those for a while. We can note what others like and recommend, but that doesn't mean we always have to follow them, or agree with them.

I am resistant to streaming for several reasons - not the least being the one which means an external company acts as a gatekeeper to recordings which I'd like to have access to, and continue to have access to for the foreseeable future. If I buy CDs, or Blu Rays, or SACDs I can be reasonably sure that I'll be able to play those and enjoy them in the future, and I expect the sound quality will be good enough for practical purposes.

[richardfinegold]

I wonder if you've misundersood me, or the context of the original post. Of course I accept that Blu Ray is almost certainly much better than wax cylinders, 78s or even LPs. What I was trying to put across is the idea that I (or we) are not on the whole able to amass lots of experience of possiby esoteric and expensive kit, and make valid comparisons. I have no idea whether the "best" streaming services with the "best" streamer beats the "best" CD player, the "best" SACD player, or the "best" Blu Ray player, whether or not coupled with the "best" DAC. Some people have obviously tried a few and may have preferences, and I'm not decrying their wish or right to tell others about those. Most of us just have to make what we deem to be sensible judgements, and then live with those for a while. We can note what others like and recommend, but that doesn't mean we always have to follow them, or agree with them.

I am resistant to streaming for several reasons - not the least being the one which means an external company acts as a gatekeeper to recordings which I'd like to have access to, and continue to have access to for the foreseeable future. If I buy CDs, or Blu Rays, or SACDs I can be reasonably sure that I'll be able to play those and enjoy them in the future, and I expect the sound quality will be good enough for practical purposes.

When I say that streaming is "winning" and driving silver discs to extinction, I am commenting on the current reality, not my preferred outcome. It's nice to have Qobuz and Tidal available, and to be able to get higher than CD resolution. There are,however, so many other variables in streaming quality that they dwarf those of physical media. How is your internet connection? Is your ISP siphoning off bandwidth from your house to supply others? How is your router? How much interference do you get from competing wi fi, from your own appliances or those of your neighbor? And yes, the streaming company can pull recordings, wipe your downloads...I had that happen with Krivine Beethoven and Spotify.
However, despite all of the above, streaming is cleaning the clock, accounting for about 90% of music sales dollars in both the U.K. and the U.S. I suspect EU figures are similar. THe Far East still sells a lot of physical product but streaming is growing there as well.
It is a given that subjectivity is inherent in judging the technologies of sound reproduction. People will always protest that cylinders beat 78s, 78s bested lps, mono beats stereo, stereo beats multichannel, lps beat digital and vice versa, red book beats high rez, VHS beats Blu Ray....How reasonable are these claims, ultimately? Because sonic preferences are subjective, is it therefore impossible to say that one medium is as good as the next? I think at some point common sense has to take over, but what do I know...?

[jayne lee wilson]

Sorry rfg, this may seem from the University of the Bleedin' Obvious, but......

How can the streaming company "pull your recordings, wipe your downloads"...?!

Once you have the files on your own drive(s), surely they're safe from harm...?

(I tend to see my Qobuz Studio Streaming service as a sort of library I subscribe to. I never think of it as owning the recordings, let alone the music... I've never had one disappear from my faves page...)

[Sir Velo]

Sorry rfg, this may seem from the University of the Bleedin' Obvious, but......

How can the streaming company "pull your recordings, wipe your downloads"...?!

Once you have the files on your own drive(s), surely they're safe from harm...?

(I tend to see my Qobuz Studio Streaming service as a sort of library I subscribe to. I never think of it as owning the recordings, let alone the music... I've never had one disappear from my faves page...)

Qobuz ain't perfect. I've had a Saint Saens chamber music double CD not load from the favourites page. A subsequent search appears to indicate that this recording is no longer available..

Likewise, the Storgards Nielsen cycle final movement of Symphony No. 5 unaccountably gives us the first three minutes of Symphony No. 6! An email to Qobuz elicited the response that they would contact the recording company concerned (ie Chandos). As yet, no sign that remedial action has been taken.

Having said that, taken all in all, a Qobuz Studio subscription represents superlative value for money.

[jayne lee wilson]

Qobuz ain't perfect. I've had a Saint Saens chamber music double CD not load from the favourites page. A subsequent search appears to indicate that this recording is no longer available..

Likewise, the Storgards Nielsen cycle final movement of Symphony No. 5 unaccountably gives us the first three minutes of Symphony No. 6! An email to Qobuz elicited the response that they would contact the recording company concerned (ie Chandos). As yet, no sign that remedial action has been taken.

Having said that, taken all in all, a Qobuz Studio subscription represents superlative value for money.

It's worth mentioning once again that where there are glitches on a stream or download, if you check the file excerpt on another site (e.g Presto or eclassical) it is almost always there too - so it is a problem with the file supplied by the record company. But the various streaming or download services inevitably tend to get the blame... high quality streaming is still quite new after all! Those of us with good enough broadband to enjoy it are pretty lucky listeners...

I guess availability will usually be down to deletion, or rights issues.

[Dave2002]

I guess availability will usually be down to deletion, or rights issues.

Indeed that is sometimes the case. Hence my preference for having a physical disc.